where to store value?
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Cash could do for the short term, 1-3 years, but for me not beyond that. Fiat money does not hold its value well, as Western central banks grow their money base by 5-10% per annum. Non-Western countries inflate even more.
Over a long timeframe, gold wins over cash, as gold reserves grow only about 1.5-2% per annum. By owning physical gold, you theoretically lose that much purchasing power each year, but gain independence from the financial system. It is not a bad idea to keep at least a portion of one's wealth out of banks, brokerage houses and government fiat money. Since 2008 financial︀ crisis, all kinds of perverted stuff has been going on, especially in Europe: Bailouts, zero/negative︁ interest rates, haircut for Cyprus depositors, talk about cashless society etc. If another financial crisis︂ were to happen, ECB could push negative interest rates on to private depositors, start delivering︃ haircuts across the eurozone, or enact other desperate, disastrous measures.
Gold can be bought anonymously︄ by cash, or online by e.g. bitcoin. It can be stored outside one's own jurisdiction,︅ e.g. in Singapore or Switzerland. It does need a safe storage, but doesn't take much︆ space. Seven figures can be stored in a shoebox, although that'll be one damn heavy︇ shoebox.
Silver, platinum and palladium have lower stock-to-flow ratio than gold. In other words, they︈ are not stored in vaults as much as gold, but used more for industrial purposes,︉ which limits their upside. Right now platinum is very cheap vs. gold. If one had︊ a very long investment horizon, one could just keep switching between these two, while maintaining︋ wealth out of the financial system with good privacy.
Long-term, bitcoin has even lower inflation︌ than gold, as the mining reward 'halvens' every four years or so. So, theoretically, it︍ bitcoin wasn't so volatile, it would be even better store of value than gold. My︎ issue with bitcoin is not the technology itself, but the relative lack of privacy-maintaining gateways️ to/from the financial system. If you want to move sizable money in/out of bitcoin, be prepared for a lot of KYC/AML at the exchanges and at your bank. Right now, gold is easier in this regard, at least in Europe.
Over a long timeframe, gold wins over cash, as gold reserves grow only about 1.5-2% per annum. By owning physical gold, you theoretically lose that much purchasing power each year, but gain independence from the financial system. It is not a bad idea to keep at least a portion of one's wealth out of banks, brokerage houses and government fiat money. Since 2008 financial︀ crisis, all kinds of perverted stuff has been going on, especially in Europe: Bailouts, zero/negative︁ interest rates, haircut for Cyprus depositors, talk about cashless society etc. If another financial crisis︂ were to happen, ECB could push negative interest rates on to private depositors, start delivering︃ haircuts across the eurozone, or enact other desperate, disastrous measures.
Gold can be bought anonymously︄ by cash, or online by e.g. bitcoin. It can be stored outside one's own jurisdiction,︅ e.g. in Singapore or Switzerland. It does need a safe storage, but doesn't take much︆ space. Seven figures can be stored in a shoebox, although that'll be one damn heavy︇ shoebox.
Silver, platinum and palladium have lower stock-to-flow ratio than gold. In other words, they︈ are not stored in vaults as much as gold, but used more for industrial purposes,︉ which limits their upside. Right now platinum is very cheap vs. gold. If one had︊ a very long investment horizon, one could just keep switching between these two, while maintaining︋ wealth out of the financial system with good privacy.
Long-term, bitcoin has even lower inflation︌ than gold, as the mining reward 'halvens' every four years or so. So, theoretically, it︍ bitcoin wasn't so volatile, it would be even better store of value than gold. My︎ issue with bitcoin is not the technology itself, but the relative lack of privacy-maintaining gateways️ to/from the financial system. If you want to move sizable money in/out of bitcoin, be prepared for a lot of KYC/AML at the exchanges and at your bank. Right now, gold is easier in this regard, at least in Europe.
You raise some good points thu&¤#.
However you know the above will not work in practice. If the EU decides to clamp down it will be as part of a raft of new EU directives. They will require all gold transactions involving EU residents over a threshold to have︀ to be reported by FI's, small gold dealers (wherever they are located in the world)︁ etc and will likely be part of an extension of the OECD CRS to enforce︂ it. There are plenty of places right now you can buy gold with bitcoin but︃ when it comes to later producing source of funds if you want to sell in︄ future good luck. Also the EU has a habit of making offshore jurisdictions comply with︅ its daft laws i.e most of Caribbean and I think i.e Singapore, Switzerland and their︆ Freezone vaults and bullion business etc will be no different.
Best step is get the︇ hell out of EU while you can 😀.
However you know the above will not work in practice. If the EU decides to clamp down it will be as part of a raft of new EU directives. They will require all gold transactions involving EU residents over a threshold to have︀ to be reported by FI's, small gold dealers (wherever they are located in the world)︁ etc and will likely be part of an extension of the OECD CRS to enforce︂ it. There are plenty of places right now you can buy gold with bitcoin but︃ when it comes to later producing source of funds if you want to sell in︄ future good luck. Also the EU has a habit of making offshore jurisdictions comply with︅ its daft laws i.e most of Caribbean and I think i.e Singapore, Switzerland and their︆ Freezone vaults and bullion business etc will be no different.
Best step is get the︇ hell out of EU while you can 😀.
while this is probably one of the most efficient ways to store value it doesn't sound that straightforward to me
1) technically speaking almost every EU country has a limit for "legal" cash transactions (nowadays typically around 10k) - so considering the sanctions involved for a company selling gold︀ it seems rather difficult to me
2) buying online is a lottery with trust -︁ how can you choose from hundreds of websites on the market? do you believe that︂ buying sound gold means that they buy it and store it physically for you (ready︃ to send it to you for reasonable fee across the globe)? I don't
3) doing︄ this all on your own sound like the only acceptable option - however it's time︅ consuming (easy to be justified though), involves traveling with huge amount of cash (problem), involves︆ traveling with gold (big problem) or you just have do it locally (not good for︇ risk management)
4) exit from gold can be difficult in future easily (as Martin Everson︈ pointed out above)
I agree that with BTC (or crypto in general) it's very similar︉ - something is easier (like transport 🙂) and something is much more difficult
anyway, thanks︊ for your effort and post with value
1) technically speaking almost every EU country has a limit for "legal" cash transactions (nowadays typically around 10k) - so considering the sanctions involved for a company selling gold︀ it seems rather difficult to me
2) buying online is a lottery with trust -︁ how can you choose from hundreds of websites on the market? do you believe that︂ buying sound gold means that they buy it and store it physically for you (ready︃ to send it to you for reasonable fee across the globe)? I don't
3) doing︄ this all on your own sound like the only acceptable option - however it's time︅ consuming (easy to be justified though), involves traveling with huge amount of cash (problem), involves︆ traveling with gold (big problem) or you just have do it locally (not good for︇ risk management)
4) exit from gold can be difficult in future easily (as Martin Everson︈ pointed out above)
I agree that with BTC (or crypto in general) it's very similar︉ - something is easier (like transport 🙂) and something is much more difficult
anyway, thanks︊ for your effort and post with value
I agree with OTR365.
I think everyone with a little extra cash to spare should place some of it in gold and store it somewhere but not in a bank.
It's a liquid asset and has no boarders. Easy to transport and in a crisis might be the only thing that will survive a crash.
Besides, who cares where you got the gold from in a crisis.
I think everyone with a little extra cash to spare should place some of it in gold and store it somewhere but not in a bank.
It's a liquid asset and has no boarders. Easy to transport and in a crisis might be the only thing that will survive a crash.
Besides, who cares where you got the gold from in a crisis.
I really don't know where this is going, seems like︁ ECB is oblivious to what is happening and what can happen - in countries like︂ Italy and Greece; UK has its own currency but the concept of exiting the EU︃ is enough fun by itself.
So I feel a bit paralyzed. Buying stocks at peak︄ levels doesn't sound smart. Holding cash is maybe survivable but not very helpful and boring.︅
I don't think buying gold is a solution, maybe it makes sense to have a︆ small gold bar (safely stored at home, not in a bank) in case you'd expect︇ total apocalypse, that's what allowed many Jews to save their lives at the beginning of︈ WWII by the way. Maybe gold makes sense in countries like India where many families︉ trust it more than the banks. In (relatively) normal situations gold seems useless to me.︊
As was already mentioned, officially you should report carrying valuable stuff (or cash) over €10k︋ when entering/exiting country. Cash transactions are even more limited.
You can avoid these restrictions but︌ even then with all things considered (time spent buying gold, spreads between buy/sell, shipping or︍ travel cost) you are better off just holding cash or investing into what you have︎ deep knowledge in.
So I feel a bit paralyzed. Buying stocks at peak︄ levels doesn't sound smart. Holding cash is maybe survivable but not very helpful and boring.︅
I don't think buying gold is a solution, maybe it makes sense to have a︆ small gold bar (safely stored at home, not in a bank) in case you'd expect︇ total apocalypse, that's what allowed many Jews to save their lives at the beginning of︈ WWII by the way. Maybe gold makes sense in countries like India where many families︉ trust it more than the banks. In (relatively) normal situations gold seems useless to me.︊
As was already mentioned, officially you should report carrying valuable stuff (or cash) over €10k︋ when entering/exiting country. Cash transactions are even more limited.
You can avoid these restrictions but︌ even then with all things considered (time spent buying gold, spreads between buy/sell, shipping or︍ travel cost) you are better off just holding cash or investing into what you have︎ deep knowledge in.
This is true.
The government does unfortunately 🙁. They will look for any reason for seizure like they do large amounts of cash if you can't tell them the source. You are guilty until proven innocent with gold just like crypto 🙁
The government does unfortunately 🙁. They will look for any reason for seizure like they do large amounts of cash if you can't tell them the source. You are guilty until proven innocent with gold just like crypto 🙁
In an age where the source of assets can be documented I suspect this is the least of our problems. I agree a government could ban the use of gold since it would undermine any currency supported by a government. Something the the USA did in 1933 when they could by law seize gold in private ownership. Ouch!
While the kind of European FATCA you described could become a reality, it is far from probable and even then could take 10-20 years. There︀ will be plenty of time to close the gold account. Also, even if privacy is︁ lost, it does not automatically lead to a big trouble.
You are assuming the source of funds is dirty, which was not︅ my assumption. Many, if not most, banks need just a proof that the gold is︆ yours, e.g. the funds come from an account owned by you. They don't dig deeper︇ unless you are subject to a criminal / tax evasion investigation. And if compliance were︈ to become very difficult, you could convert your gold back to bitcoin and be back︉ to ground zero.
It can be the best step for some,︋ but not for everyone.
For an EU citizen who does not have huge skeletons in︌ his closet, the easiest way is to get a residency in a tax friendly country︍ within the EU (such as Cyprus), do everyhting by the book and live tax free︎ or very lightly taxed, legally.
You are assuming the source of funds is dirty, which was not︅ my assumption. Many, if not most, banks need just a proof that the gold is︆ yours, e.g. the funds come from an account owned by you. They don't dig deeper︇ unless you are subject to a criminal / tax evasion investigation. And if compliance were︈ to become very difficult, you could convert your gold back to bitcoin and be back︉ to ground zero.
It can be the best step for some,︋ but not for everyone.
For an EU citizen who does not have huge skeletons in︌ his closet, the easiest way is to get a residency in a tax friendly country︍ within the EU (such as Cyprus), do everyhting by the book and live tax free︎ or very lightly taxed, legally.
True, but there is a wide scale of factors in play here; where one lives (tax residency), the amounts to be invested, time horizon, the source of funds, willingness to travel, the amount of privacy needed etc. For someone with a long time horizon, lots of extra money and a need for privacy, physical gold - undeclared and stored in a safe location - could still make a lot of sense.
By no means gold or︀ bitcoin are the only options. It is just that I don't trust the current fiat︁ moneys to survive the next financial crisis without losing their purchasing power in a big︂ way. You wanted to store value, after all. I very much agree about investing into︃ what one has a deep knowledge in. For example, for someone with knowledge about agriculture︄ & young in years, it could make sense - financial and otherwise - to set︅ up an orchard with suitable selection of trees. There is a business with several income︆ streams one could build around that. Playing to one's strengths, like you implied, makes sense.︇
By no means gold or︀ bitcoin are the only options. It is just that I don't trust the current fiat︁ moneys to survive the next financial crisis without losing their purchasing power in a big︂ way. You wanted to store value, after all. I very much agree about investing into︃ what one has a deep knowledge in. For example, for someone with knowledge about agriculture︄ & young in years, it could make sense - financial and otherwise - to set︅ up an orchard with suitable selection of trees. There is a business with several income︆ streams one could build around that. Playing to one's strengths, like you implied, makes sense.︇
Closing a gold account won't help as records don't get deleted if you close an account - the digital paper trail remains.
That's not totally true. Banks all work differently and while some may require just basic info some do not and they dig deep.︀ I know this firsthand from personal experience having sold large quantities of gold I acquired.︁ A bank statement showing wire transfer from my account to gold dealer was not enough︂ they wanted to know source of funds.
That's always︆ an option. It's down to your personal comfort zone. However if you have enough assets︇ and don't want to end up paying some exit tax when leaving the EU in︈ future think ahead now. ATAD which is in force already will only get worse and︉ exit taxation will filter down to affluent people all over the EU as it has︊ done in Poland today. You could move to Cyprus and end up paying an exit︋ tax if you try and get out...lol.😕
Exit tax in Personal Income Tax is to︌ come into force
Be warned the EU will become the biggest open air prison in︍ the world.
That's not totally true. Banks all work differently and while some may require just basic info some do not and they dig deep.︀ I know this firsthand from personal experience having sold large quantities of gold I acquired.︁ A bank statement showing wire transfer from my account to gold dealer was not enough︂ they wanted to know source of funds.
That's always︆ an option. It's down to your personal comfort zone. However if you have enough assets︇ and don't want to end up paying some exit tax when leaving the EU in︈ future think ahead now. ATAD which is in force already will only get worse and︉ exit taxation will filter down to affluent people all over the EU as it has︊ done in Poland today. You could move to Cyprus and end up paying an exit︋ tax if you try and get out...lol.😕
Exit tax in Personal Income Tax is to︌ come into force
Be warned the EU will become the biggest open air prison in︍ the world.
what you're pointing out here isn't it the world-wide trend? can you name three countries you would consider as a mid-term solution?
It is a global trend among developed countries. EU citizens are just being prepared and marinated like chickens by the EU for the end game 🙁. The elite are fleeing and ATAD is real. The working class who cant feel put in yellow vests ns2.
Britain's richest man - and Brexit supporter - is moving to Monaco
Wealth tax forces 12,000 millionaires A YEAR out of France | Daily Mail Online
That depends on your personal situation and needs. If you have the money then Monaco, Andorra, Dubai,︀ Cayman Islands etc etc.
Britain's richest man - and Brexit supporter - is moving to Monaco
Wealth tax forces 12,000 millionaires A YEAR out of France | Daily Mail Online
That depends on your personal situation and needs. If you have the money then Monaco, Andorra, Dubai,︀ Cayman Islands etc etc.
This is surely matter of personal preference and depends on many aspects like age, family and state of mind in general... I always recall Novak Djokovic going by bike for his match on a tournament in Monako to demonstrate he is "living" there. Sorry but Monaco or Andorra are a solution for a very limited number of people, however it might work as a base if you spend most of the time traveling around the world. And I also hope that the situation is not that bad yet to be considering voluntarily moving to any hole with sharia law and other bulls**t.
Tough topic indeed.︀
Tough topic indeed.︀
That's why me suggesting different countries does not work. As I mentioned it depends on your personal situation and needs. A poor person can't move to Monaco nor can a rich person with criminal record - its not always about money 🙁.
The EU are not too far away from nonsense like this happening with tax (see link). I am telling people staying in EU or opening company in lowest tax EU country while resident will make little different to the end game.
France hopes for EU corporate tax deal by mid 2019
Mark my words the EU will harmonize personal taxes also and will︀ abolish all EU territorial tax systems also. The EU project is logical and methodical in︁ abolishing individuality of EU member states, borders etc. Eventually national passports will be replaced with︂ an EU ID card. Karl Marx was 100% right in his analysis of capitalism.
The end goal is taxes will be levied by EU across entire EU and taxes will︃ be paid directly to the EU who will decide how much tax revenue is allocated︄ to each member country and how it is spent. National central banks will be abolished︅ along with physical cash also. You will have no way of fighting back or escaping︆ the EU at this stage. As everything will be done by chip and pin in︇ some type of blockchain perhaps. So I would say laugh at this statement now in︈ public and later scream in silence as you try to escape down the line. Big︉ businesses control government, government does not control big businesses.
EU = (Capitalism + Authoritarianism) *︊ Bureaucracy
p.s Germany will bring order to Europe...this objective has never changed just the means.Wake︋ up people.
The EU are not too far away from nonsense like this happening with tax (see link). I am telling people staying in EU or opening company in lowest tax EU country while resident will make little different to the end game.
France hopes for EU corporate tax deal by mid 2019
Mark my words the EU will harmonize personal taxes also and will︀ abolish all EU territorial tax systems also. The EU project is logical and methodical in︁ abolishing individuality of EU member states, borders etc. Eventually national passports will be replaced with︂ an EU ID card. Karl Marx was 100% right in his analysis of capitalism.
The end goal is taxes will be levied by EU across entire EU and taxes will︃ be paid directly to the EU who will decide how much tax revenue is allocated︄ to each member country and how it is spent. National central banks will be abolished︅ along with physical cash also. You will have no way of fighting back or escaping︆ the EU at this stage. As everything will be done by chip and pin in︇ some type of blockchain perhaps. So I would say laugh at this statement now in︈ public and later scream in silence as you try to escape down the line. Big︉ businesses control government, government does not control big businesses.
EU = (Capitalism + Authoritarianism) *︊ Bureaucracy
p.s Germany will bring order to Europe...this objective has never changed just the means.Wake︋ up people.
I share your concerns (probably in more general way) however it's too early to make assumptions like this because there would be a wide consensus necessary across EU (for example Ireland, countries of V4, Finland, etc. wouldn't go this way under current circumstances - no chance) - however this will quickly change after a social crisis that's coming and then your scenario may become real. Btw France can be hardly called a functioning country, the signs are everywhere and it's also not a country of the French anymore (just visit Paris a its suburbia). There is also a very big chance that Germany will not︀ survive their experiment with migration which would slow down the tendencies you're talking about.
We both have to use a very different definition of "capitalism" - there are no signs︁ of that in the EU. Socialism is what you should put to your equation to︂ make it correct. Replace Marx by Mises and the Austrian School is a school of︃ economic...
We both have to use a very different definition of "capitalism" - there are no signs︁ of that in the EU. Socialism is what you should put to your equation to︂ make it correct. Replace Marx by Mises and the Austrian School is a school of︃ economic...
The EU is about creating a level playing field that will favor core EU members. I'm sorry but Ireland matters nothing to EU. This is a country that was bailed out by the EU and a country that it's taxation of Apple was deemed illegal by the EU. Yes the EU interfered directly in their internal domestic tax affairs 🙁. It is just the beginning and even Italy new leadership realizes you cannot fight back against EU bureaucracy and have turned down the rhetoric.
Ireland collects more than €14bn in taxes and interest from Apple
The EU project is not about socialism. The EU is about big business it is run by big business that lobby to get laws that︀ favor their interests. Socialism in EU has always been a guise that allows the elite︁ to continue to run amok, plunder, entrap and make subservient ordinary people. Socialism teaches you︂ to be happy you have a job, be able to go to the pub after︃ work and have a netflix account and a healthy dog. The big banks just love︄ the bail-in rules don't they 😉 They get to steal your money if anything goes wrong︅ and non of them will ever go to jail. Socialism is a way to indoctrinate︆ people to never ask for more out of life - ever, or ask for freedoms.︇ It teaches you the greater good of the masses is more important than your own︈ individual needs 🙁. If someone offers you something for free under socialism then who is︉ on the other end making money from that?....the elite.
Only a billionaire Mark Zuckerberg and︊ the very wealthy get the chance to testify before EU Parliament about practices. Andrzej the︋ local Polish programmer would be thrown in jail in a minute and his business shutdown.︌ He would not be in front of EU Parliament to argue his case. Socialism works︍ with small populations but not large as its unsustainable and corrupt wherever you find it︎ in the world.
Good debate but I think I have gone well off topic 😕
Ireland collects more than €14bn in taxes and interest from Apple
The EU project is not about socialism. The EU is about big business it is run by big business that lobby to get laws that︀ favor their interests. Socialism in EU has always been a guise that allows the elite︁ to continue to run amok, plunder, entrap and make subservient ordinary people. Socialism teaches you︂ to be happy you have a job, be able to go to the pub after︃ work and have a netflix account and a healthy dog. The big banks just love︄ the bail-in rules don't they 😉 They get to steal your money if anything goes wrong︅ and non of them will ever go to jail. Socialism is a way to indoctrinate︆ people to never ask for more out of life - ever, or ask for freedoms.︇ It teaches you the greater good of the masses is more important than your own︈ individual needs 🙁. If someone offers you something for free under socialism then who is︉ on the other end making money from that?....the elite.
Only a billionaire Mark Zuckerberg and︊ the very wealthy get the chance to testify before EU Parliament about practices. Andrzej the︋ local Polish programmer would be thrown in jail in a minute and his business shutdown.︌ He would not be in front of EU Parliament to argue his case. Socialism works︍ with small populations but not large as its unsustainable and corrupt wherever you find it︎ in the world.
Good debate but I think I have gone well off topic 😕
Sounds like you want to eat the cake and have it too. Either such solutions are relevant to you or not.
If you think countries like Ireland, V4 (CZ,SK,PL,HU) will play any role in the big picture and decision making, you're︀ wrong.
Just wait a while and no longer a consensus will be necessary, just a︁ majority vote will be enough, maybe just opinion of Germany and France will matter.
So Martin's advice to get out is spot on, especially if you have no strong ties︂ to your home country. 🙂 I'd have some recommendations so feel free to PM me.
If you think countries like Ireland, V4 (CZ,SK,PL,HU) will play any role in the big picture and decision making, you're︀ wrong.
Just wait a while and no longer a consensus will be necessary, just a︁ majority vote will be enough, maybe just opinion of Germany and France will matter.
So Martin's advice to get out is spot on, especially if you have no strong ties︂ to your home country. 🙂 I'd have some recommendations so feel free to PM me.
Yes, that's me all over :-D
I'm no expert in politics of these days, neither have any ambitions to understand it deeper since it on principle leads nowhere and it's a just a temporary game. I just don't see it that easy for DE and FR to do what they want - Frau Merkel almost gone and Macron in tough position (France is obviously︀ very fragile). Frankly I'm worried about their successors being even worse socialists...
without considerable ties I'd be gone for years︂ 🙂 hard to say if one should see it as a good thing or bad one︃
I'm no expert in politics of these days, neither have any ambitions to understand it deeper since it on principle leads nowhere and it's a just a temporary game. I just don't see it that easy for DE and FR to do what they want - Frau Merkel almost gone and Macron in tough position (France is obviously︀ very fragile). Frankly I'm worried about their successors being even worse socialists...
without considerable ties I'd be gone for years︂ 🙂 hard to say if one should see it as a good thing or bad one︃
They are just faces and the public gets to pick the one they like most at election time but the EU goal does not change 🙁. Sadly neither of those front persons decide the policy of their countries they are not qualified to do so.
KJK is right if you need evidence read this article about switch to QMV 🙁.
[Opinion] Why majority voting on EU taxation is a︀ bad idea
-----extract
"An initiative kicked off on 20 December called for "more efficient EU︁ law-making procedures," and was followed up by an official communication in January, entitled 'Towards a︂ more efficient and democratic decision making in EU tax policy'.
The latter was coupled︃ with an analysis explaining how the 'passerelle clause' from the Lisbon treaty could be used︄ to introduce QMV in "areas such as common foreign and security policy, taxation or social︅ policy."
It is merely the latest attempt by EU institutions to gradually abolish any need︆ of unanimity in the council on tax issues."
--------end extract
KJK is right if you need evidence read this article about switch to QMV 🙁.
[Opinion] Why majority voting on EU taxation is a︀ bad idea
-----extract
"An initiative kicked off on 20 December called for "more efficient EU︁ law-making procedures," and was followed up by an official communication in January, entitled 'Towards a︂ more efficient and democratic decision making in EU tax policy'.
The latter was coupled︃ with an analysis explaining how the 'passerelle clause' from the Lisbon treaty could be used︄ to introduce QMV in "areas such as common foreign and security policy, taxation or social︅ policy."
It is merely the latest attempt by EU institutions to gradually abolish any need︆ of unanimity in the council on tax issues."
--------end extract
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