What's considered the best way to keep private the UBO in 2020?

[hernanday]

Which setup.
I know there are things like trust, ibcs, llcs, nominee directors, even nominee shareholders.
But which combination of these provides the best way of keeping private the UBO/ true shareholder from private snoops, creditors, exes, friends, private investigators etc. (essentially non-government) - that has little or least chance of being ripped off by some foreign crooked nominee? I already know that hiding from government is futile so would not attempt it. I'm more concerned about private greedy people looking for a payout.

Basically which setup can keep your information private the best with least chance of being ripped off. Like is there a setup or country where you can incorporate with nominee director, still open a bank account, keep the shareholder UBO unknown to any bad person who might want to sue you down the road AND not risk being ripped off by the nominee? Essentially asset protection from private ambulance chasers.

 

[Tax Cow]

Swiss private banking is the only option up to standards in this business.

If you open an account in a regular bank, anywhere from 10 to 100 to 1000 employees of that bank know, or have the ability to find out that you have an account with them.

In Switzerland, a few banks put in an effort to make sure its not more than 2 or 3. If you walk in a branch, or call the general support, the person answering would not be able to tell you have an account with them.

You typically use a trust ordered by the bank for this account. This service is aimed at 7 and 8 figure deposits. You can also use those accounts to hide from nation states like Venezuela, Argentina, virtually any place in Africa, if you are at risk.

Last edited: Jan 28, 2020

 

[JohnLocke]

xzars said:
You typically use a trust ordered by the bank for this account. This service is aimed at 7 and 8 figure deposits. You can also use those accounts to hide from nation states like Venezuela, Argentina, virtually any place in Africa, if you are at risk.
Click to expand...

Are you sure this still works after Panama Papers and Swiss leaks?

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[hernanday]

xzars said:
Swiss private banking is the only option up to standards in this business.

If you open an account in a regular bank, anywhere from 10 to 100 to 1000 employees of that bank know, or have the ability to find out that you have an account with them.

In Switzerland, a few banks put in an effort to make sure its not more than 2 or 3. If you walk in a branch, or call the general support, the person answering would not be able to tell you have an account with them.

You typically use a trust ordered by the bank for this account. This service is aimed at 7 and 8 figure deposits. You can also use those accounts to hide from nation states like Venezuela, Argentina, virtually any place in Africa, if you are at risk.
Click to expand...

I'm very confused, either you answered a question I didn't ask, or you have some insight that is either very obvious or profound that I'm over looking. I'm talking about a holding company more so than one with actual employees. Its really only purpose would be storing money in bank account or assets like RE, gold that would eventually be put into bank accounts. If I have to hire one or two locals as I know some countries like Swiss require I'll do it but I'd prefer not to as its an added expenses, so the protection better be that much more good.

I'm not looking to hide from gov't, I have no issue even paying whatever taxes I have to pay.

My fear is have company ABC in Switzerland, and lawyer creditor goes on some list and subpoena who is the owner of ABC Switzerland and sees my name on it. Is there a country that doesn't record who the owner of the company is?

 

[John Andrews]

You need to find a good lawyer who is familiar with trusts. Take a look at Cook Islands, it's probably the best jurisdiction for APTs

 

[Tax Cow]

Admin said:
Are you sure this still works after Panama Papers and Swiss leaks?
Click to expand...

Swiss banking privacy is alive, just on a smaller scale. Even when choosing their "exchange partners" for CRS TIEAs, they decided partly based upon the scrutiny they may or may not get if some countries miss out. What can a central-African banana republic do apart from pointing fingers? If a client from a frontier market country claims that he is at risk of extortion, and that his (overt) goal is not tax evasion, it will work in 2020.

@hernanday

If too many bank's employees have access to UBO information, then what good is a private holding corporation? My answer is about privacy, not only from the public, but also from the employees of the bank who hold your account.

Private Trust/Corp/Foundation = Largely Worthless, if everyone working at the bank which holds the account for that entity has full visibility down to individual UBOs. Banks will always ask for UBO, so you must either mislead the bank about your identity, the beneficiaries, or find a bank where your UBO information is handled with delicate care.

Last edited: Jan 28, 2020

 

[Tax Cow]

hernanday said:
Is there a country that doesn't record who the owner of the company is?
Click to expand...

Wet dream, apart from "bearer shares allowed" countries. But once you walk in a bank, Starbucks in one hand, bearer shares in other, asking for an account, your UBO information will be compromised. 😕

Last edited: Jan 28, 2020

 

[hernanday]

xzars said:
Swiss banking privacy is alive, just on a smaller scale. Even when choosing their "exchange partners" for CRS TIEAs, they decided partly based upon the scrutiny they may or may not get if some countries miss out. What can a central-African banana republic do apart from pointing fingers? If a client from a frontier market country claims that he is at risk of extortion, and that his (overt) goal is not tax evasion, it will work in 2020.

@hernanday

If too many bank's employees have access to UBO information, then what good is a private holding corporation? My answer is about privacy, not only from the public, but also from the employees of the bank who hold your account.

Private Trust/Corp/Foundation = Largely Worthless, if everyone working at the bank which holds the account for that entity has full visibility down to individual UBOs. Banks will always ask for UBO, so you must either mislead the bank about your identity, the beneficiaries, or find a bank where your UBO information is handled with delicate care.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'm not so concerned with them even finding the bank, they'd have a hard time doing it from scratch and I'd use private banker. I don't even care that much if the bank knows who the UBO is, but more so to make it hard for the ambulance chaser to find a government database/list of director/owner ubo etc.

The good is that if ambulance chase lawyer look for your account in government database that are publicly searchable they cannot find you so conclude there is nothing.

Your answer is a good one because it goes a level above what I was thinking, but I don't think I need that level of high protection but it is a good answer.

But since we are on the topic of bearer shares, which are no longer allowed, how exactly did those work?

 

[Tax Cow]

Bearer shares are similar to physical cash. Instead of representing a claim to X amount of USD or EUR, they represent units of ownership in a corporation.

They are still around, but banking options for these corps are very limited. Just 1/10 of banks that consider low rep IBCs with registered shares also consider IBCs with bearer shares. Banks that do open accounts for those want to keep the shares for the duration of banking relationship, which defeats the purpose. In early 2000s, your agent would open an account for you, and then mail you the bearer shares, and the banking equipment. The bank had no idea who used their account, and neither did they care.

Last edited: Jan 28, 2020

 

[hernanday]

xzars said:
Bearer shares are similar to physical cash. Instead of representing a claim to X amount of USD or EUR, they represent units of ownership in a corporation.

They are still around, but banking options for these corps are very limited. Just 1/10 of banks that consider low rep IBCs with registered shares also consider IBCs with bearer shares. Banks that do open accounts for those want to keep the shares for the duration of banking relationship, which defeats the purpose. In early 2000s, your agent would open an account for you, and then mail you the bearer shares, and the banking equipment. The bank had no idea who used their account, and neither did they care.
Click to expand...

So exactly what was it in the bearer shares that got them banned everywhere. I had no knowledge of what it was used for negatively.

 

[Tax Cow]

hernanday said:
So exactly what was it in the bearer shares that got them banned everywhere. I had no knowledge of what it was used for negatively.
Click to expand...

Governments want to have better visibility to know what everyone has! So they can take it. But they promise everything will be used for mutual good!

 

[blockchain4ever]

Continuing the off-topicness, there must be useful things these bearer shares can be used for, like holding IP, handling CFC rules, loan arrangements in crypto and similar things that do not need banking.

 

[Gediminas]

You can get the confidentiality with properly structured Foundation in Liechtenstein. Or getting a unit-linked life insurance solution. 😉

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[blockchain4ever]

I did a quick search, and I couldn't find any jurisdiction with real bearer shares:
- Cayman Islands, abolished
- Belize, abolished
- Nevis, abolished
- Panama, abolished
- Antigua, resident agent keeps registry or pays $50.000 in fine
- Seychelles, abolished

 

[Silvio]

Gediminas said:
You can get the confidentiality with properly structured Foundation in Liechtenstein. Or getting a unit-linked life insurance solution. 😉
Click to expand...

@Gediminas Can you elaborate on the "unit-linked life insurance"?

 

[Gediminas]

maxmmm said:
@Gediminas Can you elaborate on the "unit-linked life insurance"?
Click to expand...

There you go. 😉

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit-linked_insurance_plan

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[blockchain4ever]

hernanday said:
Which setup.
I know there are things like trust, ibcs, llcs, nominee directors, even nominee shareholders.
But which combination of these provides the best way of keeping private the UBO/ true shareholder from private snoops, creditors, exes, friends, private investigators etc. (essentially non-government) - that has little or least chance of being ripped off by some foreign crooked nominee? I already know that hiding from government is futile so would not attempt it. I'm more concerned about private greedy people looking for a payout.

Basically which setup can keep your information private the best with least chance of being ripped off. Like is there a setup or country where you can incorporate with nominee director, still open a bank account, keep the shareholder UBO unknown to any bad person who might want to sue you down the road AND not risk being ripped off by the nominee? Essentially asset protection from private ambulance chasers.
Click to expand...

I have no idea how you will open a bank account, but these are some "bugs" they put into typical legislation:

- Pay the fines for not keeping UBO records: $500 + $50 per day. Are you willing to pay $20.000 per year in fines?
- Buy or create a listed company on one of these exchanges, take control of the company, and control your offshore company through it. Try to balance the rights of minor shareholders, not getting delisted, and staying anonymous! Cheapest company on the Cyprus Stock Exchange is only EUR 80.000 with 4 employees!
- The Tax Justice Network has written an instruction manual for how to fragment ownership here and here how most jurisdictions use control as the test, and not enough emphasis is put on ownership.
- Let the company be an unguided missile where everything is specified in the articles of association, and you cease control of the company. Really, a trust, but embodied as a company. I think "rent a company" schemes are related to this as well.

 

[bisk]

blockchain4ever said:
I did a quick search, and I couldn't find any jurisdiction with real bearer shares:
Click to expand...

You can incorporate company in Marshall Islands with bearer shares, but why? ABSOLUTELY every bank or EMI will refuse to cooperate with you. You won't buy real estate or car in EU with offshore company. Subsidiary won't get banking either and you will have to indicate UBO. Bearer shares are completely dead in 2020.

 

[JohnLocke]

Gediminas said:
You can get the confidentiality with properly structured Foundation in Liechtenstein. Or getting a unit-linked life insurance solution. 😉
Click to expand...

What's the costs involved to setup a Liechtenstein Foundation VS Life Insurance? and is this something you have experience with to setup?

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[Gediminas]

Admin said:
What's the costs involved to setup a Liechtenstein Foundation VS Life Insurance? and is this something you have experience with to setup?
Click to expand...

Yes, we do have experience with that.

Foundation in Liechtenstein - setup price is around 15,000 EUR, then about the same annually.

Unit-linked Life Insurance solution - setup price is 30,000 ”“ 40,000 EUR, then about the same annually. You have to own at least 3-5 million EUR in assets to be eligible for that.

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