Trader deciding between Spain and Portugal
- Thread starter MrTambourineBTC
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I am not sure where you got this, however, it is wrong. There has been no guidance in Cyprus with respect to the treatment of cryptocurrencies, therefore in the absence of guidance it is inevitable that all income deriving from cryptocurrencies (when converted to fiat) will︀ be taxed at the normal tax rates depending whether the owner of the assets is︁ a physical person or a company.
Oh ok so just get NHR and all︈ winnings as income tax at 20% sounds sweet, no need for anything shady.
I also︉ have a few BTC I bought in mid november that I could potentially hold for︊ a year 0% but I think its source might be hard to justify haha
Either way I need to contact some lawyers, I think eventually you can even not reside︋ in Portugal once youre out, it's not difficult from what I've heard. Also would leave︌ Spain and some past years of some shady transactions under the radar so that works︍ for the better too. My happiest time in my life was in 2013 in Faro︎ (Algarve),that's where I would almost certainly go.
I just want to email the CNMV (spanish️ SEC) and s**t on them lol
BTC also easy long now 24.9k stolen from me because of this communist regulation lol
guess gonna take free afternoon and process it, been having doubts for close to a year whether to leave or not and suddenly after writing this post things just happen to you I guess that's life...
NHR might = 0% taxes in crypto as long as you don't trade in an exchange that has a license in Portugal (only Binance + portuguese random exchanges so far). That looks very promising.
I also︉ have a few BTC I bought in mid november that I could potentially hold for︊ a year 0% but I think its source might be hard to justify haha
Either way I need to contact some lawyers, I think eventually you can even not reside︋ in Portugal once youre out, it's not difficult from what I've heard. Also would leave︌ Spain and some past years of some shady transactions under the radar so that works︍ for the better too. My happiest time in my life was in 2013 in Faro︎ (Algarve),that's where I would almost certainly go.
I just want to email the CNMV (spanish️ SEC) and s**t on them lol
BTC also easy long now 24.9k stolen from me because of this communist regulation lol
guess gonna take free afternoon and process it, been having doubts for close to a year whether to leave or not and suddenly after writing this post things just happen to you I guess that's life...
NHR might = 0% taxes in crypto as long as you don't trade in an exchange that has a license in Portugal (only Binance + portuguese random exchanges so far). That looks very promising.
Spain dont make the difference even if its your only source of income
Tell them you live in Romania now.
Send them POA from Romania.
Futures open again 😉
Tell them you live in Romania now.
Send them POA from Romania.
Futures open again 😉
Seems like Spain is going hard to tax︀ and regulate the crypto world. I would just leave to be safe of that, also︁ you never know when they can raise the tax or create a new one for︂ traders. There's a guy on YouTube cryptospain that talk about this stuff about move to︃ from Spain to Portugal to pay less tax idk how reliable is this but maybe︄ you can check it out.
Unfortunately yes, that's why so many people is leaving Spain.︉
Unfortunately yes, that's why so many people is leaving Spain.︉
Thank you.
I have checked Portugal conditions and I'm not sure paying under 28% is possible so sadly will have to consider other options including Cyprus! Gonna look into it...
Yeah problem is after March you have to KYC at Bybit, and you might end︁ into problems if you forget to open VPN, etc... That's the main reason I want︂ to stop being under the radar (also cause would like to buy a good beach︃ front house in the south of Spain in a few years)
cryptospain is like a Saul Goodman︊ of taxes, many of the things he advices are illegal and wouldnt hold any scrutiny︋ but on paper they don't raise alarms. His strategy is "spain tax office" lacks resources,︌ personal, etc. so you do illegal stuff that you can get away with because it︍ doesn't raise inmediate flags, like making a big transaction on a foreign country under your︎ name, etc. Staying under the radar basically. Not raising red flags while doing illegal stuff️ that you would get crushed for in an audit. It mostly works because you wont likely get caught but is very risky with a tax office like Spain where they dont give 2 fucks and just try to f you with all they got and whatever they can accuse you off if they raise suspiciouns on you.
BTW I have researched about portugal and there seems to be very little information and not very clear. Regulation is brand new (october) and there were even some clarifications in January.
You need to have rental contract BEFORE applying for NHR which makes it risky because you could︀ get denied, after all trader doesnt quite fit the types of jobs they consider high︁ value jobs. I've seen cryptospain say there is absolutely no problem with getting NHR so︂ maybe he's right lol
But even with NHR it's not obvious to me that crypto︃ trading would fit under the flat income 20% tax. I haven't found much info on︄ that. So even if you end up getting the NHR it's not certain that you︅ can get 20% instead of 28%.
It's very hard for me as I have rescued︆ a cat from the street so moving to a very far place is kind of︇ difficult, Spain and Portugal by far the easiest solutions but that doesn't seem the case.︈ Worst case scenario, Portugal with 28% or continue one more year flying under the radar︉ living in Spain, althought it's getting increasingly difficult to operate in CEXs withouth KYC and︊ even with KYC from Spain you can't access futures/derivatives, so it's either Spain under the︋ radar one more year, Portugal and likely 28%, or perhaps other destiny...
I have checked Portugal conditions and I'm not sure paying under 28% is possible so sadly will have to consider other options including Cyprus! Gonna look into it...
Yeah problem is after March you have to KYC at Bybit, and you might end︁ into problems if you forget to open VPN, etc... That's the main reason I want︂ to stop being under the radar (also cause would like to buy a good beach︃ front house in the south of Spain in a few years)
cryptospain is like a Saul Goodman︊ of taxes, many of the things he advices are illegal and wouldnt hold any scrutiny︋ but on paper they don't raise alarms. His strategy is "spain tax office" lacks resources,︌ personal, etc. so you do illegal stuff that you can get away with because it︍ doesn't raise inmediate flags, like making a big transaction on a foreign country under your︎ name, etc. Staying under the radar basically. Not raising red flags while doing illegal stuff️ that you would get crushed for in an audit. It mostly works because you wont likely get caught but is very risky with a tax office like Spain where they dont give 2 fucks and just try to f you with all they got and whatever they can accuse you off if they raise suspiciouns on you.
BTW I have researched about portugal and there seems to be very little information and not very clear. Regulation is brand new (october) and there were even some clarifications in January.
You need to have rental contract BEFORE applying for NHR which makes it risky because you could︀ get denied, after all trader doesnt quite fit the types of jobs they consider high︁ value jobs. I've seen cryptospain say there is absolutely no problem with getting NHR so︂ maybe he's right lol
But even with NHR it's not obvious to me that crypto︃ trading would fit under the flat income 20% tax. I haven't found much info on︄ that. So even if you end up getting the NHR it's not certain that you︅ can get 20% instead of 28%.
It's very hard for me as I have rescued︆ a cat from the street so moving to a very far place is kind of︇ difficult, Spain and Portugal by far the easiest solutions but that doesn't seem the case.︈ Worst case scenario, Portugal with 28% or continue one more year flying under the radar︉ living in Spain, althought it's getting increasingly difficult to operate in CEXs withouth KYC and︊ even with KYC from Spain you can't access futures/derivatives, so it's either Spain under the︋ radar one more year, Portugal and likely 28%, or perhaps other destiny...
I mean he is a weird character but maybe some info could be useful (?) Tbh you will have to contact a professional or two to be sure about Portugal is convenient for you, unfortunately seems like Spain in just getting worse every year.
Yes not everything he says is super illegal and you can get some very good ideas and also he knows a lot of stuff that's for sure. But most suggestions are bizarre/outlandish/against the law.
Also he is expensive af cause he has managed to get a big audience: 4 hour live consultation 1800€, 1 hour phone︀ call 400€. I saw him for the first time in a youtube and and I︁ was like who's this fat bald guy and why is he wearing a mask lol︂
I'm gonna do more research on my own. If I didn't have a cat I'd︃ say f**k all these greedy taxmen and go to the close to 0% tax destination︄ with good weather might be Cyprus but in my circumstances perhaps it's better to pay︅ even 28% and move. Happiness always before some extra money.
Spain with no leverage I︆ really can't see it happening. It's just not possible (at least for me) or very︇ hard to grow 20x+ an account in 1-2 years without using leverage. I will give︈ it some more thought too but I just don't think it could be possible and︉ even if I could do it, in the same period I could have done 150x︊ so there really is no point.
Also he is expensive af cause he has managed to get a big audience: 4 hour live consultation 1800€, 1 hour phone︀ call 400€. I saw him for the first time in a youtube and and I︁ was like who's this fat bald guy and why is he wearing a mask lol︂
I'm gonna do more research on my own. If I didn't have a cat I'd︃ say f**k all these greedy taxmen and go to the close to 0% tax destination︄ with good weather might be Cyprus but in my circumstances perhaps it's better to pay︅ even 28% and move. Happiness always before some extra money.
Spain with no leverage I︆ really can't see it happening. It's just not possible (at least for me) or very︇ hard to grow 20x+ an account in 1-2 years without using leverage. I will give︈ it some more thought too but I just don't think it could be possible and︉ even if I could do it, in the same period I could have done 150x︊ so there really is no point.
Hey man, I feel your pain.
Your initial assessment about this cryptospain guy is totally right, he will fall HARD and I feel sorry for anyone following his advice. He is full of crap period, it's just a matter of time.
Anyway, 28% doesn't sound too bad at all for peace of mind to be honest. You can later move to Andorra after your first tax return. I was going to suggest that as an alternative, the only problem is that you need a tax return before you move there. There is a crypto lawyer on youtube based in Andorra, he even had a debate︀ with the cryptobro so he should be easy to find 😉
Also, let's not forget that︁ after being under the radar your whole life, even moving to another country can be︂ challenging if the purpose is to become legal there. Banks and other institutions can still︃ be a problem and ask for source of funds, tax returns, etc... Proper due dilligence︄ is a must.
I agree with you, peace of mind & quality of life >︅ taxes.
May I ask why the cat is a problem? Can't you take it with︆ you even if you have to catch a plane? Just curious.
Your initial assessment about this cryptospain guy is totally right, he will fall HARD and I feel sorry for anyone following his advice. He is full of crap period, it's just a matter of time.
Anyway, 28% doesn't sound too bad at all for peace of mind to be honest. You can later move to Andorra after your first tax return. I was going to suggest that as an alternative, the only problem is that you need a tax return before you move there. There is a crypto lawyer on youtube based in Andorra, he even had a debate︀ with the cryptobro so he should be easy to find 😉
Also, let's not forget that︁ after being under the radar your whole life, even moving to another country can be︂ challenging if the purpose is to become legal there. Banks and other institutions can still︃ be a problem and ask for source of funds, tax returns, etc... Proper due dilligence︄ is a must.
I agree with you, peace of mind & quality of life >︅ taxes.
May I ask why the cat is a problem? Can't you take it with︆ you even if you have to catch a plane? Just curious.
Yes especially having a big audience, and taxmen all watching his videos, his suggestions/modus︈ operandi....it.makes it easier for them to go against his strategies just because he's very well︉ known. But there is some value in watching his videos. Just don't follow any advice︊ that sounds bizarre lol
Wouldn't be surprised if Spanish tax office went hard against him︋ even through portugal tax agency. He has his tax residency in Portugal even though he︌ lives in Spain....he's definitely flying too close to the sun....
28% in return for nothing︍ is a lot in my opinion, the average worker in Spain pays less than that︎ while getting social security + contributing to a pension....
I didn't know that about Andorra,️ I think you pay there 10% and life is much more expensive, so you should make at least 200k+ for the 10% difference in taxes (at least compared to Spain) to make some kind of difference for the cold weather...plus o already live in a cold place in Spain...but perhaps in a few years making way more....thanks for the advice
I don't think im going to have a problem with source of funds, I'm gonna have an A account from 100% legal money donated from my parents about 15-20k hopefully, and from that money, make it grow trading crypto totally legally. 100% legal money within︀ the banking system. And keep my B account as B account in crypto/defi...and eventually find︁ a way to make it A account but it's not urgent....or is there another problem︂ I'm not seeing???
About the cat....she's stray and I just rescued her, she's pregnant and︃ perhaps gonna keep one of her kittens too lol the others hopefully give to good︄ people otherwise I'll have to keep them too I really hope I don't have to︅ lol
So makes it a little bit more complicated to travel and move, by car︆ its much easier but yeah like I said I'm open to other European destinations if︇ they have good weather!
Wouldn't be surprised if Spanish tax office went hard against him︋ even through portugal tax agency. He has his tax residency in Portugal even though he︌ lives in Spain....he's definitely flying too close to the sun....
28% in return for nothing︍ is a lot in my opinion, the average worker in Spain pays less than that︎ while getting social security + contributing to a pension....
I didn't know that about Andorra,️ I think you pay there 10% and life is much more expensive, so you should make at least 200k+ for the 10% difference in taxes (at least compared to Spain) to make some kind of difference for the cold weather...plus o already live in a cold place in Spain...but perhaps in a few years making way more....thanks for the advice
I don't think im going to have a problem with source of funds, I'm gonna have an A account from 100% legal money donated from my parents about 15-20k hopefully, and from that money, make it grow trading crypto totally legally. 100% legal money within︀ the banking system. And keep my B account as B account in crypto/defi...and eventually find︁ a way to make it A account but it's not urgent....or is there another problem︂ I'm not seeing???
About the cat....she's stray and I just rescued her, she's pregnant and︃ perhaps gonna keep one of her kittens too lol the others hopefully give to good︄ people otherwise I'll have to keep them too I really hope I don't have to︅ lol
So makes it a little bit more complicated to travel and move, by car︆ its much easier but yeah like I said I'm open to other European destinations if︇ they have good weather!
Note that you could also do Thailand 😉
I lived in Spain for a minute and know how Hacienda works.
You could also do Romania or Bulgaria for a few years at ~10%
I lived in Spain for a minute and know how Hacienda works.
You could also do Romania or Bulgaria for a few years at ~10%
Thank you for the advice CryptoAnt! Bulgaria is 10% which is nice but the weather sucks...similar weather as Romania...
Andorra 10% as well but the weather sucks as well at least from Spanish perspective!!
Andorra 10% as well but the weather sucks as well at least from Spanish perspective!!
i mean you dont have to live there all year, just be a tax resident.
Montenegro is 10% too.
Greece 15% 😉
Austria no taxes until you withdraw EUR, crypto to stable is considered a crypto trade and as a result no tax applies.
26.something% when you convert to EUR
Montenegro is 10% too.
Greece 15% 😉
Austria no taxes until you withdraw EUR, crypto to stable is considered a crypto trade and as a result no tax applies.
26.something% when you convert to EUR
You sure about that??? That was before the new law on crypto and was my plan I had decided, play poker make 20k declare as main source of income and then crypto at 0% but as I︀ say they changed the law. Also, why would I need NHR for that if I︁ could ask?
And also, how difficult it would be to get NHR? I'm a professional︂ poker player for 15 years and now trader, not sure that qualify for NHR at︃ all lol
I think perhaps under NHR crypto could be taxed at 20% instead of︄ the normal 28% but O haven't found anywhere where this is confirmed. There is a︅ huge lack of information regarding trading, crypto under the new law and NHR.
And also, how difficult it would be to get NHR? I'm a professional︂ poker player for 15 years and now trader, not sure that qualify for NHR at︃ all lol
I think perhaps under NHR crypto could be taxed at 20% instead of︄ the normal 28% but O haven't found anywhere where this is confirmed. There is a︅ huge lack of information regarding trading, crypto under the new law and NHR.
About 0% cryptos in 2023︂ if hold for a year is for all portugués tax residents not a NHR staff:︃
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My Portuguese is not good and I am not a lawyer, but I heard︄ this from different sources I do trust.
Also, it was not difficult to find the︅ law publication after a bit of googling
Emissor: Assembleia da República
Data de Publicação: 2022-12-30
https://files.dre.pt/1s/2022/12/25102/0009000377.pdf
Sorry could not find and︇ English version. You can translate it manually. Check Artigo/article 218 starts at page 171. The︈ part you are looking for is at page 173, the Point 19.
19 , São︉ excluídos os ganhos obtidos, bem como as perdas incorridas, resultantes das operações previstas na alínea︊ k) do n.º 1 relativas a criptoativos detidos por um período igual ou superior a︋ 365 dias.
Google translated:
19 , Gains obtained, as well as losses incurred, resulting from︌ the operations provided for in paragraph k) of paragraph 1 relating to crypto assets held for a period equal to or greater than 365 days are excluded.
Nonetheless consul and︍ expert.
The 20% income tax is only for NHR and you maybe right the are︎ a list of profession that apply
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Not sure how creative you can become trying to fit poker player into one of these profesiones... 😉
On the other hand, trading may be easier...
Again, consult a professional
Finally, I believe Portugal has canceled the Golden Visa Program, but the NHR program is still active. However, it may follow︀ the same path and be canceled, so do not wait for long
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My Portuguese is not good and I am not a lawyer, but I heard︄ this from different sources I do trust.
Also, it was not difficult to find the︅ law publication after a bit of googling
Lei n.º 24-D/2022, de 30 de dezembro
Publicação: Diário da República n.º 251/2022, 2º Suplemento, Série I de 2022-12-30, páginas 90 -︆ 377Emissor: Assembleia da República
Data de Publicação: 2022-12-30
https://files.dre.pt/1s/2022/12/25102/0009000377.pdf
Sorry could not find and︇ English version. You can translate it manually. Check Artigo/article 218 starts at page 171. The︈ part you are looking for is at page 173, the Point 19.
19 , São︉ excluídos os ganhos obtidos, bem como as perdas incorridas, resultantes das operações previstas na alínea︊ k) do n.º 1 relativas a criptoativos detidos por um período igual ou superior a︋ 365 dias.
Google translated:
19 , Gains obtained, as well as losses incurred, resulting from︌ the operations provided for in paragraph k) of paragraph 1 relating to crypto assets held for a period equal to or greater than 365 days are excluded.
Nonetheless consul and︍ expert.
The 20% income tax is only for NHR and you maybe right the are︎ a list of profession that apply
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| Architects | Engineers | Geologists |
| Theater, ballet, cinema, radio, television️ artists | Singers | Sculptors |
| Musicians | Painters | Auditors |
| Tax consultants | Dentists | Medical Analysts |
| Clinical surgeons | Ship’s doctors | General Practitioners |
| Dentists | Medical physiatrists | Doctors |
| University lecturers | Psychologists | Archaeologists |
| Biologists and life science experts | Computer programmers | Software consultant |
| Computer consultants and related services | News agencies | Other information and service activities |
| Scientific research and development | Research and experimental development on natural sciences and engineering | Research and development in biotechnology |
| Designers | Investors | Managers |
| Directors | Higher management |
Not sure how creative you can become trying to fit poker player into one of these profesiones... 😉
On the other hand, trading may be easier...
Again, consult a professional
Finally, I believe Portugal has canceled the Golden Visa Program, but the NHR program is still active. However, it may follow︀ the same path and be canceled, so do not wait for long
Yes yes if you hold over a year it's 0% but︇ I'm a trader, was asking more specifically about the NHR and if there was a︈ way to lower that 28% on capital gains.....
Yes golden visa for non EU got︉ more difficult now, NHR still ongoing
Yes golden visa for non EU got︉ more difficult now, NHR still ongoing
As far as I know you cannot lower it. However, being a bit creative you may find a way....
https://www.forbes.com/sites/cecili...ter-ireland-and-before-spain/?sh=7eb9a85866ca
https://www.forbes.com/sites/cecili...ter-ireland-and-before-spain/?sh=7eb9a85866ca
Well, to be fair, avarage worker in Spain pays less than 28% because they make peanuts. Making 100k you pay closer to 35% (43% if you take into account the part payed by the employer), and it ony goes up from there.
No problem at all with your plan regarding money, sounds pretty solid to me.
This source says it is in fact taxed at 20% under NHR, don't know how old︆ the article is or if the information is current: Taxes on cryptocurrencies in Portugal (GUIDE︇ 2023)
Getting NHR status isn't that easy, at least on paper. Looks like they ask︈ for documented proof for the high value activity (degrees, experience in the field, etc), but︉ don't take my word for it as I haven't consulted with a tax lawyer. You︊ should also consider the social security situation, it could add 11% to 14% to effective︋ tax if you have to contribute.
No problem at all with your plan regarding money, sounds pretty solid to me.
This source says it is in fact taxed at 20% under NHR, don't know how old︆ the article is or if the information is current: Taxes on cryptocurrencies in Portugal (GUIDE︇ 2023)
Getting NHR status isn't that easy, at least on paper. Looks like they ask︈ for documented proof for the high value activity (degrees, experience in the field, etc), but︉ don't take my word for it as I haven't consulted with a tax lawyer. You︊ should also consider the social security situation, it could add 11% to 14% to effective︋ tax if you have to contribute.
Hey there!
Been investigating a little bit︃ more.
So about NHR... it seems like it's very easy (almost automatic) to get, many︄ people that get it are not even workers they are pensionist.... so you get it,︅ but in order to declare taxes as self employed under it, it's gonna be more︆ difficult, if you are a trader, you could try to mask it under other profession,︇ but if they dig on it you might get thrown it away of course, so︈ I think it's risky.
It would be 20% + 14% social security yes but up︉ to 1125€ per year so it's not a lot.
The more I dig about portugal︊ the more difficult I think this is going to be. I want to go there︋ because for me I think it's by far the best option personally, close to home,︌ I could use leverage (you can't in Spain LOL), very nice weather in the Algarve︍ and would just go away from Spain tax office without being on the radar. The︎ problem is there are not a ton of good options:
Self-employed under NHR... 20% but️ risky as we have just commented.
Self employed normally... crazy taxes, I think even bigger than Spain, 35%+ up to 48% if you make 100k€
Corporate in Portugal.... 18-20% up to 200k€, but dividens at 25%... so the total would be 40%? Crazy too
Corporate under NHR with a corporate offshore.... that has really low taxes, 5% Malta, 12.5% Cyprus.... then under NHR, dividends from abroad companies taxed at 0%.... the problem again is that they could argue your company is de facto in Portugal if you are the solel member of it and develop your trading activity living in Portugal and charge you as if it was a Portuguese company.... so again close to 40%.
I think the last︀ option might be possible I gotta investigate, but the only legit option which is self︁ employed under Personal Income Tax you pay easily 35%+...
Been investigating a little bit︃ more.
So about NHR... it seems like it's very easy (almost automatic) to get, many︄ people that get it are not even workers they are pensionist.... so you get it,︅ but in order to declare taxes as self employed under it, it's gonna be more︆ difficult, if you are a trader, you could try to mask it under other profession,︇ but if they dig on it you might get thrown it away of course, so︈ I think it's risky.
It would be 20% + 14% social security yes but up︉ to 1125€ per year so it's not a lot.
The more I dig about portugal︊ the more difficult I think this is going to be. I want to go there︋ because for me I think it's by far the best option personally, close to home,︌ I could use leverage (you can't in Spain LOL), very nice weather in the Algarve︍ and would just go away from Spain tax office without being on the radar. The︎ problem is there are not a ton of good options:
Self-employed under NHR... 20% but️ risky as we have just commented.
Self employed normally... crazy taxes, I think even bigger than Spain, 35%+ up to 48% if you make 100k€
Corporate in Portugal.... 18-20% up to 200k€, but dividens at 25%... so the total would be 40%? Crazy too
Corporate under NHR with a corporate offshore.... that has really low taxes, 5% Malta, 12.5% Cyprus.... then under NHR, dividends from abroad companies taxed at 0%.... the problem again is that they could argue your company is de facto in Portugal if you are the solel member of it and develop your trading activity living in Portugal and charge you as if it was a Portuguese company.... so again close to 40%.
I think the last︀ option might be possible I gotta investigate, but the only legit option which is self︁ employed under Personal Income Tax you pay easily 35%+...
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