Thailand tax update 20/11/23
- Thread starter Wellington
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Thank you for excellent explanation.
I have a Kraken account and also Bitstamp so it's all good if needed.
I'll probably try to do P2P meetup if it's money I can't show has been there from before 2024.
But then again, I wonder, back to my original questions above.. As far as I understand the new tax law, if I had savings in a bankaccount, I could put them in a timedeposit and transfer into Thailand upon expiry of the timedepsoit without tax? It's savings that was there︀ before 2024, except for the interest. I have a paper trail from before 2024.
How will they interpret crypto staking? I have a large amount of crypto in various staking︁ pools for years (not only USDT/USDC). What if I withdraw those funds and transfer via︂ for instance Kraken to Thailand. Will I be taxed because I don't have a "paper︃ trail" or will this be interpreted as savings in a "savings" (staking) account that has︄ been there since before 2024?
I once had to deal with the TCSD in Bangkok....︅ they were completely clueless to crypto and how it worked. I had to do crypto︆ forensic tracing and follow the crypto on my own and show them and still they︇ didn't understand. I had to write their reports to Binance and a few other exchanges︈ that were involved. In the end obviously nothing happened as most of the time with︉ police in this country. Mind you this was just 1-2 years ago. So how about︊ the revenue department? 🙄 How will they understand crypto?
On another note.
I assume you entered︋ the telegram group and posted the question?
I am a bit surprised no one has︌ answered as it's usually a lively and helpful group.
Maybe it's weekend or maybe because︍ it's not related to Bkk. I'm not sure..
I have a Kraken account and also Bitstamp so it's all good if needed.
I'll probably try to do P2P meetup if it's money I can't show has been there from before 2024.
But then again, I wonder, back to my original questions above.. As far as I understand the new tax law, if I had savings in a bankaccount, I could put them in a timedeposit and transfer into Thailand upon expiry of the timedepsoit without tax? It's savings that was there︀ before 2024, except for the interest. I have a paper trail from before 2024.
How will they interpret crypto staking? I have a large amount of crypto in various staking︁ pools for years (not only USDT/USDC). What if I withdraw those funds and transfer via︂ for instance Kraken to Thailand. Will I be taxed because I don't have a "paper︃ trail" or will this be interpreted as savings in a "savings" (staking) account that has︄ been there since before 2024?
I once had to deal with the TCSD in Bangkok....︅ they were completely clueless to crypto and how it worked. I had to do crypto︆ forensic tracing and follow the crypto on my own and show them and still they︇ didn't understand. I had to write their reports to Binance and a few other exchanges︈ that were involved. In the end obviously nothing happened as most of the time with︉ police in this country. Mind you this was just 1-2 years ago. So how about︊ the revenue department? 🙄 How will they understand crypto?
On another note.
I assume you entered︋ the telegram group and posted the question?
I am a bit surprised no one has︌ answered as it's usually a lively and helpful group.
Maybe it's weekend or maybe because︍ it's not related to Bkk. I'm not sure..
It's not too bad, i mean it sucks for those that earn a income and were bringing in the same year hoping they were not checked, or even those that deferred for a year before bringing in.
But otherwise for those that have savings overseas built up over numerous years, it's not a bad turn of events (could have been worse).
I don't know what︄ a time deposit is (CD?) -> American thing i think?
But i can say from︅ my discussions with the revenue department -> which were extensive.
If you have savings overseas︆ -> and you put those into stocks/similar and then draw that down and bring those︇ funds into Thailand later, only the capital gains side of it would be taxed as︈ income, the principle wouldn't.
But it needs to be documented.
Crypto Staking if personal would be taxable, if via a overseas company then not.
The difference being crypto is consider to be in Thailand if you are a resident regardless of where its actually based.︀
If its a company then its entirely different, so...
Company Asset -> Staked -> Staking︁ Rewards -> Liquidated -> Dividend -> Remitted % taxed, rest un-taxed.
IF TCSD were involved with you -> that would be to︉ do with something else...
P2P that went wrong ? (i.e tainted funds)?
But otherwise for those that have savings overseas built up over numerous years, it's not a bad turn of events (could have been worse).
I don't know what︄ a time deposit is (CD?) -> American thing i think?
But i can say from︅ my discussions with the revenue department -> which were extensive.
If you have savings overseas︆ -> and you put those into stocks/similar and then draw that down and bring those︇ funds into Thailand later, only the capital gains side of it would be taxed as︈ income, the principle wouldn't.
But it needs to be documented.
Crypto Staking if personal would be taxable, if via a overseas company then not.
The difference being crypto is consider to be in Thailand if you are a resident regardless of where its actually based.︀
If its a company then its entirely different, so...
Company Asset -> Staked -> Staking︁ Rewards -> Liquidated -> Dividend -> Remitted % taxed, rest un-taxed.
IF TCSD were involved with you -> that would be to︉ do with something else...
P2P that went wrong ? (i.e tainted funds)?
Term deposit? You lock your cash for a specific time for increased interest rates
Ok Understood
Yes all is outside︄ of Thailand
So basically just transfer amounts that has been sitting idle would be better︅ and hope they do not catch other amounts in your wallet.
I had a wallet hacked and︈ tried to get the help of the TCSD. I should have known it was a︉ waste of time.
In the end I took it as a tax on my other︊ profits in other wallets 😉
Have a good evening!
Ok Understood
Yes all is outside︄ of Thailand
So basically just transfer amounts that has been sitting idle would be better︅ and hope they do not catch other amounts in your wallet.
I had a wallet hacked and︈ tried to get the help of the TCSD. I should have known it was a︉ waste of time.
In the end I took it as a tax on my other︊ profits in other wallets 😉
Have a good evening!
Super interesting thread guys.
I'm willing to convert some USDT/USDC to THB to buy a condo or something (so, not a small deal), and I wanna do it in a super clean way. If someone can advise a contact to discuss the matter, even for paid advice, it'd help a lot.
PS. The tricky part, that I still have to fully understand, is that money for an expat (fiscally resident in Thailand but not with a work permit), has to come from abroad with the explicit intent (reason of payment?) of buying real estate. But it must be a pretty new procedure cause many agents︀ and banks have no idea how this actually works!
thanks.
I'm willing to convert some USDT/USDC to THB to buy a condo or something (so, not a small deal), and I wanna do it in a super clean way. If someone can advise a contact to discuss the matter, even for paid advice, it'd help a lot.
PS. The tricky part, that I still have to fully understand, is that money for an expat (fiscally resident in Thailand but not with a work permit), has to come from abroad with the explicit intent (reason of payment?) of buying real estate. But it must be a pretty new procedure cause many agents︀ and banks have no idea how this actually works!
thanks.
@wellington might be able to, at the very least, guide you on what NOT to︂ do, so you stay out of trouble. Trouble = ammunition to the state and their︃ henchmen.
Answered somewhere above
HK crypto exchange / OTC -> HKD -> Kasikorn︇ HKD account (Thailand - foreign currency account) -> convert to THB in branch -> paper︈ trail and fund import docs provided -> Buy condo
* note can send over in︉ HKD to THB account but fees will be higher with less control on currency conversion︊ decision.
** Note I know Kasikorn has foreign currency accounts as Elite established mine years︋ ago.
I previously (company) had a Euro account with bangkok bank for commercial but it︌ was costly to maintain and a pain in the a*s to do anything - with︍ Kasikorn you can have Euro, SGD , HKD and I believe $ (I don’t use︎ dollars so not 100% sure in that one).
Note there is zero digital access -️ it’s all managed in branch - normally the City/Provincial head branch, with Bangkok Bank it’s any branch I believe or was for commercial.
Not sure on other banks as never asked .
Reference OTC can’t give you any specifics - because a lot has changed over the past few years - will say a lot of Japanese OTCs route through Taiwan Merchant Banks.
In HK they route through Chinese or European rails or ripple (I know)
One that comes up immediately in google - so your research Crypto HK: Homepage , Crypto HK
Or look for established exchanges / crypto OTC regional companies.
HK crypto exchange / OTC -> HKD -> Kasikorn︇ HKD account (Thailand - foreign currency account) -> convert to THB in branch -> paper︈ trail and fund import docs provided -> Buy condo
* note can send over in︉ HKD to THB account but fees will be higher with less control on currency conversion︊ decision.
** Note I know Kasikorn has foreign currency accounts as Elite established mine years︋ ago.
I previously (company) had a Euro account with bangkok bank for commercial but it︌ was costly to maintain and a pain in the a*s to do anything - with︍ Kasikorn you can have Euro, SGD , HKD and I believe $ (I don’t use︎ dollars so not 100% sure in that one).
Note there is zero digital access -️ it’s all managed in branch - normally the City/Provincial head branch, with Bangkok Bank it’s any branch I believe or was for commercial.
Not sure on other banks as never asked .
Reference OTC can’t give you any specifics - because a lot has changed over the past few years - will say a lot of Japanese OTCs route through Taiwan Merchant Banks.
In HK they route through Chinese or European rails or ripple (I know)
One that comes up immediately in google - so your research Crypto HK: Homepage , Crypto HK
Or look for established exchanges / crypto OTC regional companies.
Thanks for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it.
I well understand the process︊ you are suggesting, but what I miss is the "remittance of foreign funds" as I︋ read in the attached ebook. Sounds like the funds cannot be moved and used in︌ a second moment, but must be used directly to pay the purchase.
Need to find︍ the right person/agent I guess, until now I've got just a generic answer about it︎ (from realtor and banks).
I well understand the process︊ you are suggesting, but what I miss is the "remittance of foreign funds" as I︋ read in the attached ebook. Sounds like the funds cannot be moved and used in︌ a second moment, but must be used directly to pay the purchase.
Need to find︍ the right person/agent I guess, until now I've got just a generic answer about it︎ (from realtor and banks).
These links can help:
https://thethaiger.com/thai-life/pr...hailand-for-property-purchase#google_vignette
https://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/transfer-money-to-thailand-property-purchase.php
https://freshbangkok.com/guide/the-ultimate-guide-to-buying-bangkok-condos-and-homes/
If you buy a condo in your name money has to come from abroad (Thereafter FET document will be useful to repatriate this money outside of Thailand) but if you buy through a Thai company (mandatory to buy land/house) it can be funded different ways and no document will be needed to prove money comes from offshore.
Getting a FET is︀ standard process, when making the wire transfer need to write "Property Purchase" as purpose.
AFAIK, there's no obligation to precise unit/address because you may have not made your choice yet︁ (buying on plan) but seller could ask you detail it in order to "close" the︂ sale. Once money is in your TH bank there's no deadline/purpose to spend it either︃ (you have the right to change your mind if no sales agreement has been signed︄ yet).
Realtors/developers may help with RE legal services when you buy, I strongly suggest you︅ take legal advice.
Important note: be aware that foreign remittance will potentially (still no clarity)︆ be taxable starting 01/01/2024 onwards, unless you have evidence that money has been earned prior︇ 2024 or you are not TH tax resident the year you remit money.
https://thethaiger.com/thai-life/pr...hailand-for-property-purchase#google_vignette
https://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/transfer-money-to-thailand-property-purchase.php
https://freshbangkok.com/guide/the-ultimate-guide-to-buying-bangkok-condos-and-homes/
If you buy a condo in your name money has to come from abroad (Thereafter FET document will be useful to repatriate this money outside of Thailand) but if you buy through a Thai company (mandatory to buy land/house) it can be funded different ways and no document will be needed to prove money comes from offshore.
Getting a FET is︀ standard process, when making the wire transfer need to write "Property Purchase" as purpose.
AFAIK, there's no obligation to precise unit/address because you may have not made your choice yet︁ (buying on plan) but seller could ask you detail it in order to "close" the︂ sale. Once money is in your TH bank there's no deadline/purpose to spend it either︃ (you have the right to change your mind if no sales agreement has been signed︄ yet).
Realtors/developers may help with RE legal services when you buy, I strongly suggest you︅ take legal advice.
Important note: be aware that foreign remittance will potentially (still no clarity)︆ be taxable starting 01/01/2024 onwards, unless you have evidence that money has been earned prior︇ 2024 or you are not TH tax resident the year you remit money.
Bringing funds into a HKD account is bringing them into the country (remitting) - moving to your THB account is part of that process - you are however controlling the conversion ratio.
Alternatively check with the︀ bank you should be able to buy the property using the HKD account with a︁ cheque from the bank
Just don’t loose the cheque as they are bearer assets -︂ meaning can be cashed out unless a specific entity is put on them by anyone︃
This is an important point
“Realtors/developers may help with RE legal services when you buy,︄ I strongly suggest you take legal advice.”
Sometimes they split the payments part on shore︅ and part offshore
As their funding unless domestic is offshore and they need to service︆ those payments
So it won’t be unusual to pay a Affilated entity in HK or︇ Singapore for part of the payment - depends on the developer ofcourse.
In experience a︈ 100m$ development I had experience with a decade ago had offshore and onshore - onshore︉ servicing via SCB director loan 10m$ and rest in HK or BVI.
On top of︊ that payroll was onshore and offshore.
So you might find they may ask to be︋ paid part offshore.
Alternatively check with the︀ bank you should be able to buy the property using the HKD account with a︁ cheque from the bank
Just don’t loose the cheque as they are bearer assets -︂ meaning can be cashed out unless a specific entity is put on them by anyone︃
This is an important point
“Realtors/developers may help with RE legal services when you buy,︄ I strongly suggest you take legal advice.”
Sometimes they split the payments part on shore︅ and part offshore
As their funding unless domestic is offshore and they need to service︆ those payments
So it won’t be unusual to pay a Affilated entity in HK or︇ Singapore for part of the payment - depends on the developer ofcourse.
In experience a︈ 100m$ development I had experience with a decade ago had offshore and onshore - onshore︉ servicing via SCB director loan 10m$ and rest in HK or BVI.
On top of︊ that payroll was onshore and offshore.
So you might find they may ask to be︋ paid part offshore.
Maybe the easiest solution is to only spend 5 months in Thailand the year that you buy a condo there.
Thanks guys for taking the time again.
So what I read in the ebook I've attached earlier is simply wrong︀ (full ebook here JFYI: Purchasing A Condo In Thailand As A Foreigner Ebook.pdf). They︁ write on the website to be both experts in real estate and crypto so I︂ would have been interested in taking advice from them...
Can I use these funds to︃ purchase a different condo?
If the condo you are trying to purchase, for whatever reason,︄ becomes unavailable you CANNOT
use the same funds to complete another transaction. If you find︅ another condo to purchase, even
if it is next door to your original intended purchase︆ and costs exactly the same, the whole process
must start again. You will have to︇ transfer the money into Thailand as a foreign currency under a
new transaction.
So what I read in the ebook I've attached earlier is simply wrong︀ (full ebook here JFYI: Purchasing A Condo In Thailand As A Foreigner Ebook.pdf). They︁ write on the website to be both experts in real estate and crypto so I︂ would have been interested in taking advice from them...
Can I use these funds to︃ purchase a different condo?
If the condo you are trying to purchase, for whatever reason,︄ becomes unavailable you CANNOT
use the same funds to complete another transaction. If you find︅ another condo to purchase, even
if it is next door to your original intended purchase︆ and costs exactly the same, the whole process
must start again. You will have to︇ transfer the money into Thailand as a foreign currency under a
new transaction.
Would you recommend sending︇ the money to Thailand before January 1 even if it was earned this same year?︈
I keep hearing that the tax law changes from January 1, so not sure if︉ that means that a large amount still could be sent on December without any taxation︊ or checks from the Thai tax authorities.
It is for a condo purchase.
I keep hearing that the tax law changes from January 1, so not sure if︉ that means that a large amount still could be sent on December without any taxation︊ or checks from the Thai tax authorities.
It is for a condo purchase.
Last update on tax law changes states that all offshore money earned prior 01/01/2024 can be remitted tax-free in 2024.
So better send this money after January 1st.
If you want to remit money this year 2023, current︀ old rule still applies: If money was earned in 2023 it's taxable else (before 2023)︁ it's tax-free.
So better send this money after January 1st.
If you want to remit money this year 2023, current︀ old rule still applies: If money was earned in 2023 it's taxable else (before 2023)︁ it's tax-free.
There was a video explainer I was sent yesterday on this from a legal team will share when I refind
looks like we’ve been grandfathered in
looks like we’ve been grandfathered in
This is interesting, I have a bunch of 'money' tied up long term in the MtGox bankruptcy, repayments are apparently going to begin soon and I do expect SWIFT transfers to hit my account in the first 3 to 6 months of 2024.
I will get both crypto (Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash) which I'm not worried about - I can handle that as it's going to an American exchange were I already verified KYC/AML to a decent level. I'll likely just keep it as crypto for a while, I've been forced to hold it for nearly 10 years now so what's a few more.....
The cash portion however will go to my Thai bank account, it's going to be a︀ little under 2 million Baht.
Now this is most definitely money from 2014 when they︁ went under, it will be transferred directly to me from the MtGox company I believe︂ - the company still exists in civil rehabilitation.
What happened is the trustee sold about︃ $650 million worth of Bitcoin back in around 2018 so he had enough funds to︄ bring the company out of 'liquidation bankruptcy' and give us the option of civil rehabilitation︅ which we all voted to accept. This kind of resurrected the company minus the old︆ shareholders with the trustee in charge.
So now they're using that $650 million which has︇ just been sitting there losing value for the last 5 years to pay back everyone︈ whatever they held on the day of the bankruptcy, no matter if the account balance︉ was crypto or USD, but we also get a proportional share of the Bitcoin the︊ company holds, and they have a lot, they have 137,000 Bitcoin - the crypto payments︋ in my case will be on top of the original USD value at the date︌ it was declared insolvent.
So this is a very rare moment where the creditors in︍ a bankruptcy will actually receive far more than was lost - at current JPY prices︎ it's like 20 times the amount back in 2014 due to Bitcoin price appreciation.
In my case the value of everything I had on there was all in Bitcoin and️ worth about $60-80k back in Feb 2014 (that's quit a bit of Bitcoin to lose even back then) but I'm getting this cash plus a bunch of crypto, the cash represents only a small amount of the total returned but it's also just what I had on there at the point it collapsed.
Now I don't want to pay tax on this - it's 100% older money but I'm not sure how I'm going to prove this is old money in Thailand when they come looking to tax me on the wires which I'm sure they will - this is definitely not money 'earned' recently︀ - it exists right now and has been allocated to me for years - I'm︁ just waiting for payment.
I guess I kind of think of it as like a︂ bank account balance in Japan but it's an accepted bankruptcy claim and not in a︃ bank.
Any thoughts?
I appreciate that this is an unusual situation but I'm pretty sure︄ I shouldn't pay any tax on that and would like to know what to do︅ to prove it's old money - I don't have records from 2014 but I do︆ have claim acceptance screenshots. Also I did not pay any tax on the original $80k,︇ I put like $10k in and traded it up over a couple of years to︈ get this amount. I have been in Thailand the entire time and not paid any︉ tax at all.
I will get both crypto (Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash) which I'm not worried about - I can handle that as it's going to an American exchange were I already verified KYC/AML to a decent level. I'll likely just keep it as crypto for a while, I've been forced to hold it for nearly 10 years now so what's a few more.....
The cash portion however will go to my Thai bank account, it's going to be a︀ little under 2 million Baht.
Now this is most definitely money from 2014 when they︁ went under, it will be transferred directly to me from the MtGox company I believe︂ - the company still exists in civil rehabilitation.
What happened is the trustee sold about︃ $650 million worth of Bitcoin back in around 2018 so he had enough funds to︄ bring the company out of 'liquidation bankruptcy' and give us the option of civil rehabilitation︅ which we all voted to accept. This kind of resurrected the company minus the old︆ shareholders with the trustee in charge.
So now they're using that $650 million which has︇ just been sitting there losing value for the last 5 years to pay back everyone︈ whatever they held on the day of the bankruptcy, no matter if the account balance︉ was crypto or USD, but we also get a proportional share of the Bitcoin the︊ company holds, and they have a lot, they have 137,000 Bitcoin - the crypto payments︋ in my case will be on top of the original USD value at the date︌ it was declared insolvent.
So this is a very rare moment where the creditors in︍ a bankruptcy will actually receive far more than was lost - at current JPY prices︎ it's like 20 times the amount back in 2014 due to Bitcoin price appreciation.
In my case the value of everything I had on there was all in Bitcoin and️ worth about $60-80k back in Feb 2014 (that's quit a bit of Bitcoin to lose even back then) but I'm getting this cash plus a bunch of crypto, the cash represents only a small amount of the total returned but it's also just what I had on there at the point it collapsed.
Now I don't want to pay tax on this - it's 100% older money but I'm not sure how I'm going to prove this is old money in Thailand when they come looking to tax me on the wires which I'm sure they will - this is definitely not money 'earned' recently︀ - it exists right now and has been allocated to me for years - I'm︁ just waiting for payment.
I guess I kind of think of it as like a︂ bank account balance in Japan but it's an accepted bankruptcy claim and not in a︃ bank.
Any thoughts?
I appreciate that this is an unusual situation but I'm pretty sure︄ I shouldn't pay any tax on that and would like to know what to do︅ to prove it's old money - I don't have records from 2014 but I do︆ have claim acceptance screenshots. Also I did not pay any tax on the original $80k,︇ I put like $10k in and traded it up over a couple of years to︈ get this amount. I have been in Thailand the entire time and not paid any︉ tax at all.
Would be treated as income.
If you'd︌ been paid in 2022, and left out and brought in after (or 1/1/23) 1/1/24 would︍ be savings.
If you'd︌ been paid in 2022, and left out and brought in after (or 1/1/23) 1/1/24 would︍ be savings.
Well that sucks, maybe I'll have to suck it up and pay some tax. I do expect to have to pay some as I transfer living expenses into the country as well.
I've got a Thailand Elite membership until 2040 so I guess I'll be looking at loopholes like leaving the country when I bring any larger amount in at some point in the future but I'll hold off on that until there's more clarity on the local regulations in a year or two.
However I will be in their system by then which I︀ don't like and I'm not leaving for 6.5 months making myself non resident over just︁ a couple of million Baht but I would do it for maybe 10 or more︂ million Baht.
I guess I'll need to consult an accountant about this, going into their︃ tax system on a voluntary basis goes against everything I believe in and have practiced︄ since the 90's.
I've got a Thailand Elite membership until 2040 so I guess I'll be looking at loopholes like leaving the country when I bring any larger amount in at some point in the future but I'll hold off on that until there's more clarity on the local regulations in a year or two.
However I will be in their system by then which I︀ don't like and I'm not leaving for 6.5 months making myself non resident over just︁ a couple of million Baht but I would do it for maybe 10 or more︂ million Baht.
I guess I'll need to consult an accountant about this, going into their︃ tax system on a voluntary basis goes against everything I believe in and have practiced︄ since the 90's.
If you are not in the Thai system yet, I'll suggest not to declare anything beforehand.
Wait until you get official information personally of any tax change. Then, if further asked to justify your remittance in Thailand, your first answer will be "I don't know" like locals do, and negotiations begin.
Wait until you get official information personally of any tax change. Then, if further asked to justify your remittance in Thailand, your first answer will be "I don't know" like locals do, and negotiations begin.
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