Spain residency without tax residency?
- Thread starter JustAnotherNomad
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Basically, if it's in the same calendar year it's temporary. There is no limit.
Generally speaking, however, Hacienda won't even realize this, or they will assume you're a tourist if somehow they run into your file. But if they have a reason to believe that you might not be completely a tourist, then you will have to prove tax residency somewhere else.
Generally speaking, however, Hacienda won't even realize this, or they will assume you're a tourist if somehow they run into your file. But if they have a reason to believe that you might not be completely a tourist, then you will have to prove tax residency somewhere else.
Residency somewhere else, not tax residency! Even though showing tax residency somewhere else definitely helps in this situation.
That's my question precisely. There is usually case law for this, such as "not more than 60 days in a row", "after any presence, be gone for at least the same number of days" etc., but those rules are vague.
But also, even if you don't cross the 183 days they can still say it's your center of vital interest - I was wondering if anyone knows what kind of rules they apply.
Of course I understand you can probably fly under the radar, you can︀ protect yourself with a DTA etc. - I am aware of all that. But I︁ was just wondering what the actual rules are.
But also, even if you don't cross the 183 days they can still say it's your center of vital interest - I was wondering if anyone knows what kind of rules they apply.
Of course I understand you can probably fly under the radar, you can︀ protect yourself with a DTA etc. - I am aware of all that. But I︁ was just wondering what the actual rules are.
Officially any EU countries you go more than 90days (consecutive), you have to register at the immigration office.
Most of EU countries you can get tax ID without being 90days+ there. Just because you ask for the ID number︀ or because you purchased a flat (in some EU countries, they give you automatically a︁ tax number, even if you reside 0 days there..).
Getting the immigration document for 90days+︂ (if you asked it and if you were a specific years more than 90days CONSECUTIVE︃ in the country) and have a tax number of this country don't make you tax︄ resident ONLY by these two things...
Basically it's not a bad idea to have 'residency'︅ documents and tax number in many places.. so you can switch / adapt, and it's︆ more complicated for a particular country to say you are tax resident there (except ofc︇ if you wife/kids stay in one particular place, or you spend more 183days in one︈ and/or your main income from one..).
Most of EU countries you can get tax ID without being 90days+ there. Just because you ask for the ID number︀ or because you purchased a flat (in some EU countries, they give you automatically a︁ tax number, even if you reside 0 days there..).
Getting the immigration document for 90days+︂ (if you asked it and if you were a specific years more than 90days CONSECUTIVE︃ in the country) and have a tax number of this country don't make you tax︄ resident ONLY by these two things...
Basically it's not a bad idea to have 'residency'︅ documents and tax number in many places.. so you can switch / adapt, and it's︆ more complicated for a particular country to say you are tax resident there (except ofc︇ if you wife/kids stay in one particular place, or you spend more 183days in one︈ and/or your main income from one..).
Hacienda's wording says 'tax residence':
"Stay in Spain for more than 183 days during the calendar year. To determine this period of stay, your sporadic absences are counted, unless you prove your tax residence in another country."
"Stay in Spain for more than 183 days during the calendar year. To determine this period of stay, your sporadic absences are counted, unless you prove your tax residence in another country."
Depends on the country. There are a lot of countries where this would indeed make you tax resident, even if you don't spend time in your apartment (having a place available to you is sufficient).
Exactly. There is case law for this for sure, or even some internal instructions for the Hacienda officials, but it doesn't seem like anyone︀ here has detailed knowledge about this.
Exactly. There is case law for this for sure, or even some internal instructions for the Hacienda officials, but it doesn't seem like anyone︀ here has detailed knowledge about this.
Depends yes, but MOST of EU countries doesnt consider you as tax resident only because you have a available flat. It can be easily your secondary or third home.
Ofc to avoid any trouble, better to have another REAL place, and keep the requirements as explained above. But if all is clear and you really dont spend much time there, you can IMO prove easily.︀ Very far from the 'Shakira case'.
And usually, with the few EU countries who can︁ still consider as tax resident just by having a flat at disposal, it's when it's︂ your Home country. As I understood, OP is a alien from spain..
Ofc to avoid any trouble, better to have another REAL place, and keep the requirements as explained above. But if all is clear and you really dont spend much time there, you can IMO prove easily.︀ Very far from the 'Shakira case'.
And usually, with the few EU countries who can︁ still consider as tax resident just by having a flat at disposal, it's when it's︂ your Home country. As I understood, OP is a alien from spain..
After some googling:
https://www.osborneclarke.com/insig...multinational-groups-and-recent-court-rulings
https://www.osborneclarke.com/insig...multinational-groups-and-recent-court-rulings
Hi. I'm in the end of the process of getting Spanish residence permit and I was︃ very interested in this question. I had two or three consultations with lawyers in Spain︄ asking this exact questions. They do not know. No kidding. Their position is "Sometimes tax︅ authorities decide that you are a tax resident and send you a letter. Then you︆ need to prove you are not, the proper way is tax residency certificate from other︇ country" They are not sure what triggers that letter, they are not sure what other︈ ways to proof non-residency. They give some meek (different) answers and the common motive is︉ "It just happens sometimes, not often, have tax residency certificate handy".
Another point. A friend︊ of mine has digital nomad visa. An agency helped him to get it almost a︋ year ago and now they sent a notice saying something like:
"Some our clients who︌ got the permit a year ago received letters from tax authorities warning that mandatory social︍ security (RETA) registration was not completed, monthly social security payments obligations not fulfilled and you︎ have 10 days to explain that or we are going to initiate the cancellation of️ residence permit"
So it's not exactly saying of tax residency, just social security (probably specific to digital nomads), but still.
I don't know much regarding the second point (it was friend, not me), but the first one was me personally. I found it very frustrating talking to lawyers to hear "Ah we are not sure, it just happens sometimes". I plan to keep my ties to Spain to absolute minimum, staying at monthly tourist rentals for example.
Cheers.
Another point. A friend︊ of mine has digital nomad visa. An agency helped him to get it almost a︋ year ago and now they sent a notice saying something like:
"Some our clients who︌ got the permit a year ago received letters from tax authorities warning that mandatory social︍ security (RETA) registration was not completed, monthly social security payments obligations not fulfilled and you︎ have 10 days to explain that or we are going to initiate the cancellation of️ residence permit"
So it's not exactly saying of tax residency, just social security (probably specific to digital nomads), but still.
I don't know much regarding the second point (it was friend, not me), but the first one was me personally. I found it very frustrating talking to lawyers to hear "Ah we are not sure, it just happens sometimes". I plan to keep my ties to Spain to absolute minimum, staying at monthly tourist rentals for example.
Cheers.
I know that you can fly under the radar there if you don't stand out, even better don't get a NIE, don't get empadronamiento and don't get a bank account although not sure how you would rent without one, utility bills there are direct debit almost exclusively, even rent may be required by the real estate agent to be on direct debit. Never tried a foreign account for that it may or may not work.
I know people who spent years there without having any local income or declaring anything, never been asked a question about what they live from and how they pay their︀ bills, it's normal for people to be unemployed and in debt over there. Unless you︁ have a lot of bad luck just go for it and behave like you're a︂ tourist that wants to keep say water sports gear and other stuff there so you︃ rent a place 😉
The rules are not 100% clear and things can be interpreted, talk︄ to a few accounting offices (gestorias) about foreign income, international dividends and stuff and you︅ will see what I mean, maybe in the biggest cities it will be different but︆ in general they don't know and don't want to deal with you because they don't︇ want any risks of doing something wrong and coming back to bite them. They won't︈ say it but many will delay you answers or never get back to you at︉ least if they have enough clients.
I'm sure tax residency goes the same way as︊ most things in Spain.
I know people who spent years there without having any local income or declaring anything, never been asked a question about what they live from and how they pay their︀ bills, it's normal for people to be unemployed and in debt over there. Unless you︁ have a lot of bad luck just go for it and behave like you're a︂ tourist that wants to keep say water sports gear and other stuff there so you︃ rent a place 😉
The rules are not 100% clear and things can be interpreted, talk︄ to a few accounting offices (gestorias) about foreign income, international dividends and stuff and you︅ will see what I mean, maybe in the biggest cities it will be different but︆ in general they don't know and don't want to deal with you because they don't︇ want any risks of doing something wrong and coming back to bite them. They won't︈ say it but many will delay you answers or never get back to you at︉ least if they have enough clients.
I'm sure tax residency goes the same way as︊ most things in Spain.
Thank u for the reply. . I prefer not to register, as︃ im having my taxed income allrdy from my native country and there is DTA between︄ our countries worst case, and i dont need local bank etc.. was planing to stay︅ less then 183d also as i do winters in Asia. . . so u think︆ ANAF wount bother if a keep a low profile . ., im from EU.
If anyone is looking to spend time in Spain and not pay taxes, make sure you stay less than 183 days per year, and make sure you pay taxes somewhere else. If you don't pay taxes in another country, you will end up having to pay taxes in Spain.
And if you open a bank account in Spain, the bank will ask you where do you reside, they have to report your account back to your country of residency to comply with CRS.
I would stay away from Spain, the world is a big place with much better options to enjoy Sangria and Paella.
And if you open a bank account in Spain, the bank will ask you where do you reside, they have to report your account back to your country of residency to comply with CRS.
I would stay away from Spain, the world is a big place with much better options to enjoy Sangria and Paella.
I think in most EU countries if you don't register they don't know you're there if you have an EU passport as you can just cross the border and︀ stay unless you give them reasons to look for you. If you don't get a︁ local bank account just paying rent to someone will probably go unnoticed along with day︂ to day expenses. Less than 183 days? Then really no need to worry, I know︃ romanians who declare nothing to ANAF and most who are Romanian living outside of the︄ country never formally did any paperwork with ANAF to tell them they are no longer︅ residents.
If you actually like spending time there go for it.
If you actually like spending time there go for it.
I was dealing with a practical case where the guy who︁ used to be a Spanish tax resident obtained legal residency in Panama and even bought︂ the property there. Still, Panama didn't issue a tax residence certificate without proof of being︃ there for at least 183 days, so he is getting screwed hard now by Spanish︄ tax authorities, who want to go after his worldwide income. He mistakenly took the advice︅ of the grifters in Panama.
Not so fast my friend....
If you go to Spain you have to stay somewhere, a hotel or an Airbnb, they all have to report to the police on a daily basis. Even if you find a beautiful Hooker and you want to rent a room for one hour, they will ask for your ID so they can fill out a form that by law must be uploaded to the police database.
There's nowhere to hide, not even if you go camping.
The story repeats itself....
If you go to Spain you have to stay somewhere, a hotel or an Airbnb, they all have to report to the police on a daily basis. Even if you find a beautiful Hooker and you want to rent a room for one hour, they will ask for your ID so they can fill out a form that by law must be uploaded to the police database.
There's nowhere to hide, not even if you go camping.
The story repeats itself....
There are many airbnb owners who prefer cash or bank transfer without any documents, if you rent with them outside Airbnb they may not even ask for your documents︀ if they know you, stay you used Airbnb for a month and then changed to︁ direct rent.
The list from Airbnb goes to Guardia civil or policía nacional depending on︂ town or province, without a reason I really don't think hacienda will look at those︃ records unless they are looking for you specifically.
There were so many Brits staying there︄ before brexit for half a year at least without registering.
Being a tax resident who︅ paid high tax and declares nothing in one year will probably raise questions indeed
The list from Airbnb goes to Guardia civil or policía nacional depending on︂ town or province, without a reason I really don't think hacienda will look at those︃ records unless they are looking for you specifically.
There were so many Brits staying there︄ before brexit for half a year at least without registering.
Being a tax resident who︅ paid high tax and declares nothing in one year will probably raise questions indeed
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