Setting up overseas company - advice needed please?

Charlie Davis

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Jun 3, 2018
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Hi all

I'm setting up a company with my son who lives in Thailand. Our staff are based in Philippines.

Our clients are based all across the world - mainly US/Europe. They pay using credit card - Paypal would be possible although we often need to take telephone payments. Typical revenue would be £20k to £100k per month.

I currently live in the UK but will become a digital nomad from August 2019 onwards travelling constantly for a year or longer.

I have a UK based Ltd company already that I own solely.

I'm looking to minimise our tax liabilities as far as possible - I've been researching this for so many weeks I feel like I'm going crazy lol!

I would be delighted to get a recommendation on the best set up and then pay a company to set it up for us.

Looking forward to your replies.
 
It depends what you consider "minimise". It can mean two different things to two different people. It can often mean zero tax or just lower tax rate ;-)

If you are happy to pay 20-21% tax then stick with the UK company. As a non-resident shareholder you will not pay dividend tax. However, with brexit tax laws may change significantly and you may want to consider avoiding any risk.

Alternatively if zero tax is your thing. An Estonian company may suit you better. Tax will only by paid on income distributed from the company. There is no tax on profits generated. As a digital nomad obtaining an Estonian e-residency should be a top priority as the program is geared to digital nomads.

e-Residency ”“ New Digital Nation

Holvi and Estonia's e-Residency program: a year in review

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.
 
I am definitely not happy with the current UK tax rate lol and I am definitely open to setting up a tax structure to reduce to zero even if it means some grey areas.

What I am looking for is a way to set up an overseas company that is managed overseas legitimately by my son - so there is zero corporation tax. I have researched HK and Singapore and these both look like possibilities except HK is apparently difficult to set up a bank account in? The one thing I do need is the payment processor hence me seeking advice here. Would the Belize holding company invoicing a Cyprus company with Paypal work? Or would Dubai work? We have no Cyprus clients so I presume this would result in zero tax?

It makes sense to just run my normal clients through my UK company and declare income here, pay pension etc - and only withdraw my offshore income once I am actually overseas.
 
You need to work out your residency issues first and foremost before taking any steps. You should not do anything until August 2019 when you have left the UK.

Dubai and Belize are options but check with payment processor before going down that route. An offshore company is pointless for minimizing taxation unless it it done in conjunction with a good residency plan. Effective place of control (majority director residency) is important to resolve. You have time 🙂

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.
 
Really? I'd heard that as long as your overseas company is genuinely managed overseas (which is the case here) then residency isn't a problem.
After all, even if I choose to bring the funds into the UK - at worst I'll just be paying dividend tax on them but still avoiding corporation tax?
 
Charlie Davis said:
Really? I'd heard that as long as your overseas company is genuinely managed overseas (which is the case here) then residency isn't a problem.
After all, even if I choose to bring the funds into the UK - at worst I'll just be paying dividend tax on them but still avoiding corporation tax?
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If you have no involvement in the company then you are right. What threw me was you say you are setting up a company with your son initially. However, if the company is completely managed by your son with no involvement by yourself in any position within the management and ownership of company then no issues.

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Martin Everson said:
As a digital nomad obtaining an Estonian e-residency should be a top priority as the program is geared to digital nomads.
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To become a digital nomad do you have to renounce your tax-residency (is that even possible)? I assume you will always be a tax-resident somewhere, it may just be that if you don't stay in your tax-resident country for X number of days (per tax year) you automatically are exempt from paying taxes for that tax year.

Estonia is part of the CRS/AEOI initiative as a result your bank account balance (after aggregation) is likely to be reported to your home tax-resident country?

I am interested in a similar setup as the OP (zero tax & asset protection) but due to CRS/AEOI it has really made life difficult.
 
Yes you do have to renounce your tax residency. It is prudent to inform the tax office that you are leaving and not just vanish. It is also wise to say explicitly that you do not intend to ever return even if you do plan on doing so in 1 year time...lol. Timing is also important. You want to leave ideally at the beginning of the tax year after completing your tax submission. Otherwise the the taxman will claim you spent majority of your time in the country and hence still have a tax liability while you are living abroad. If your from the UK the form is the P85 form if I remember correctly.

Typically most countries consider you resident if you spend more than 180 days in any tax year in the country. Some countries it can be as low as 90 days. In fact in certain countries if you enter the country and tick the wrong box they can consider you tax resident from day one. What people consider a digital nomad is a gray area. Yes you can bounce from country to country and lets say spend no more than 180 days before moving on. While working you will be considered a non-resident but still expected to pay tax on money earned in the country. However you will need to change all your records including banking details to reflect your move each time you move and it can be a pain. Hence banking needs to be considered very carefully or you could end up having CRS data sent to multiple countries in a single year of moving around. You really need to plan on taking up residency in a territorial tax or tax free country and then hop around without tax worries. I know of people who have residency visa's for Dubai but spend a lot of time working outside. Likewise Andorra is a good option for residency and you do not have to spend much time there either. So is Gibraltar, if you are wealthy enough to obtain a Category 2 residency you do not need to spend any time there at all really and just pay a flat yearly fixed amount and you are free to move around ;-)

Yes Estonia is part of CRS and will report your account. Think about your strategy as bouncing around countries and holding an account in a non CRS country won't help you over the next few years.

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.
 
Martin Everson said:
Typically most countries consider you resident if you spend more than 180 days in any tax year in the country. Some countries it can be as low as 90 days. In fact in certain countries if you enter the country and tick the wrong box they can consider you tax resident from day one. What people consider a digital nomad is a gray area. Yes you can bounce from country to country and lets say spend no more than 180 days before moving on. While working you will be considered a non-resident but still expected to pay tax on money earned in the country. However you will need to change all your records including banking details to reflect your move each time you move and it can be a pain. Hence banking needs to be considered very carefully or you could end up having CRS data sent to multiple countries in a single year of moving around. You really need to plan on taking up residency in a territorial tax or tax free country and then hop around without tax worries. I know of people who have residency visa's for Dubai but spend a lot of time working outside. Likewise Andorra is a good option for residency and you do not have to spend much time there either. So is Gibraltar, if you are wealthy enough to obtain a Category 2 residency you do not need to spend any time there at all really and just pay a flat yearly fixed amount and you are free to move around ;-)
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Yes that seems like a very gray area that can turn black pretty soon. I found a blog of some Swiss tax lawyer: Analysis of the Common Reporting Standard Loopholes
I think he actually enjoys telling people why nothing can work at all...

This is a common situation:
- you are a citizen born in some Western country (Europe, UK, Canada...)
- you get your residency permit in some country you mentioned (UAE, Andorra, Gibraltar...)
- you won't be spending 180 days in that country so they won't issue you any tax domicile certificate

And I think this is the problem which that Swiss lawyer (above) explains. Also here it is noted: Tax residency in Andorra and tax domicile

QUESTION 1: When you get a new residency and you have an old bank account in your home country, should you tell the bank about that change or not?
I think both options can backfire.

a) You DON'T tell old bank about the change - tax office will use it against you because you didn't report the change you are still resident.
b) You DO tell old bank about the change - bank will have to report you to your new country. That foreign country doesn't care at all but actually your home country could. Because the chain of reporting is: bank reports nonresident accounts (of both citizens and non-citizens) to the LOCAL tax office -> local tax office processed the reports and sends them to individual tax offices of many countries -> country of your new residency recieved the report and doesn't care at all. But the local tax office has this information stored and knows you are their citizen who on paper escaped into a different country. Now it's up to you to prove it isn't just on paper.

QUESTION 2: What do you have to do to stop being considered tax resident in your country?
It seems to me to be almost impossible in many countries. Some countries like Finland and Poland even directly say it is not possible.

I can imagine many angles that the local tax office can take:

- parents in your home country? Your center of viral interest is there, bad luck!
- own an apartment that you are renting to someone else? You have a habitual above there, bad luck!
- you own a car and you are tracked on some cameras or tolls? We found you, bad luck!
- you keep bank accounts in your home country and the bank thinks you're a resident? Then you are a resident, bad luck!

For me the problem with all these perpetual travellers and digital nomads is that it is extremely difficult to prove ties to some other country which are stronger than ties to your home country.

When you have kids or a wife or a local business, then it's basically impossible. But even when you're single, location independent and you take appropriate actions, it still seems very dangerous.

Okay - you break ties with your home country and get a paper residency somewhere. In practice you claim not to be a resident anywhere. Is that legal and possible?
 
auric said:
you want to stay no where longer than 183 days! but it's difficult.
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That does not really solve it in many situations. If I live in the Schengen area, how can I prove I stayed out of my home country in a different country?
And on the contrary - how can the government/tax office prove that I stayed INSIDE my home country for 183 days?

All this is really nice on paper, "183 days", and "habitual abode", and "center of vital interests" and "tax residency certificate".
But I'm interested in some practical situations or real world situations.
 
well, trust me they can proof it and they will use it, they can check your bank account, your credit card and even ask neighbours and what else they do to try to proof you are tax liable, that's also how you can proof that you didn't lived anywhere more than 183 days.
 
All right, any other methods besides these (card payments and neighbours)? I feel this is walking on very thin ice.

In the end it depends on the person you are dealing with - or dealing against - on the government side.
How much will be he/she willing to dig into it?

That is why I'm interested in specific situations and examples of someone who already had to defend against this, successfully or unsuccessfully. Some documents like court decisions would also help me a lot.
 

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