Netherlands Company and Dividends
- Thread starter Codio
- Start date
- Status
(1) I didn't know that the dividend taxes are︀ tax deductible that is new to me - need to read more about it and︁ talk with my accountant - thanks for the tip
(2) I use Celsius and 2︂ other CEFI solutions to earn yield on my BTC (I only risk like 10-15% of︃ my total stack)
(3) My friend opened BV company and he paid large portion of︄ his BTC into BV and he keeps it there earns yield and some times withdraw︅ earned yield to cover some of the expenses in his private life by doing so︆ he is not paying wealth tax in NL etc. - thoughts? opinion about it? Maybe︇ you heard/read about other people in NL doing it as well?
(2) I use Celsius and 2︂ other CEFI solutions to earn yield on my BTC (I only risk like 10-15% of︃ my total stack)
(3) My friend opened BV company and he paid large portion of︄ his BTC into BV and he keeps it there earns yield and some times withdraw︅ earned yield to cover some of the expenses in his private life by doing so︆ he is not paying wealth tax in NL etc. - thoughts? opinion about it? Maybe︇ you heard/read about other people in NL doing it as well?
I am considering f... of from NL by end of the year but than there is nowhere in Europe really where you can go and sell BTC without paying capital tax gains... yes there are Dubai's of this world, Monaco etc. but I am not ultra rich to live in these places
No dividend withholding taxes are︁ deductible in most cases, normal dividend taxes are never deductible. I have never heard people︂ doing that because the capital gains will be taxed at the corporate tax rate eventually,︃ so I don't see the benefit of putting the money into a B.V. for high︄ yielding assets like BTC.
If you would put 1M into the B.V. and within a︅ few years that turns into 2M and want to cash out you will have to︆ pay tax on the 1 million in gains. Which will be 225000 in corporate tax︇ and 208340 in dividend tax leaving you with 433.340 in taxes to pay. Also don't︈ forget the cost and time for the auditing and maintaining the company. If you would︉ have left it in BOX3 you would have paid 12K a year or something in︊ tax.
If you would put 1M into the B.V. and within a︅ few years that turns into 2M and want to cash out you will have to︆ pay tax on the 1 million in gains. Which will be 225000 in corporate tax︇ and 208340 in dividend tax leaving you with 433.340 in taxes to pay. Also don't︈ forget the cost and time for the auditing and maintaining the company. If you would︉ have left it in BOX3 you would have paid 12K a year or something in︊ tax.
(1) I believe it will go a lot more in the next 10-20 years (that is my time horizon) so don't won't to get out from this 'bus'
(2) I might sell a little selling everything would create another problem where to invest the cash from sale (I am not a big spender and don't care about showing off in Lambo)
(2) I might sell a little selling everything would create another problem where to invest the cash from sale (I am not a big spender and don't care about showing off in Lambo)
So basically I would get 650k (out of €1m profit) into my pocket - would I have to pay income tax on it as well as individual?
So hypothetically I am putting €1m into BV and next year it is €2m I want︀ to cash out I pay €430k in taxes for that keeping it as individual €1m︁ goes up to €2m (and let's assume it stay like this forever - no more︂ appreciation) My wealth tax goes up from €12k (on €1m) to €24k (on €2m) every︃ year so I would need 20 years (20x€24k) to be better of by keeping BTC︄ in BV - I assume that is what you are trying to explain here right?︅ 🙂
So hypothetically I am putting €1m into BV and next year it is €2m I want︀ to cash out I pay €430k in taxes for that keeping it as individual €1m︁ goes up to €2m (and let's assume it stay like this forever - no more︂ appreciation) My wealth tax goes up from €12k (on €1m) to €24k (on €2m) every︃ year so I would need 20 years (20x€24k) to be better of by keeping BTC︄ in BV - I assume that is what you are trying to explain here right?︅ 🙂
Another mental challange 🙂
I paid in €1m in crypto into BV it appreciates in value over time I got︃ €2m in BTC now and I benefited as I avoided wealth tax (if I would︄ keep it as private person)
Now 1-2-3-5 years later I decided to sell €1m of︅ BTC (out of €2m that BV holds) and BV holds now €1m in cash and︆ €1m in BTC.
Next step: BV loans to my PRIVATE self this €1m to finance︇ the house. I set the T&Cs and interest rate like any other bank would do︈ (e.g. 1% 30 years fix) to ensure that TAX MAN won't knock my door.
Now I PRIVATE myself can go and use this €1m loan to buy the house, live︉ in it with my family.
Commitment is that I need to pay back the loan︊ to my BV but (1) I can tax deduct these costs (2) I can't go︋ bankrupt as I own money to myself.
Did I miss something?
QUESTION - BV will︌ have to pay corporate tax on this income generated from loan to myself but I︍ could reduce it / offset it if I generate enough expenses right?
I paid in €1m in crypto into BV it appreciates in value over time I got︃ €2m in BTC now and I benefited as I avoided wealth tax (if I would︄ keep it as private person)
Now 1-2-3-5 years later I decided to sell €1m of︅ BTC (out of €2m that BV holds) and BV holds now €1m in cash and︆ €1m in BTC.
Next step: BV loans to my PRIVATE self this €1m to finance︇ the house. I set the T&Cs and interest rate like any other bank would do︈ (e.g. 1% 30 years fix) to ensure that TAX MAN won't knock my door.
Now I PRIVATE myself can go and use this €1m loan to buy the house, live︉ in it with my family.
Commitment is that I need to pay back the loan︊ to my BV but (1) I can tax deduct these costs (2) I can't go︋ bankrupt as I own money to myself.
Did I miss something?
QUESTION - BV will︌ have to pay corporate tax on this income generated from loan to myself but I︍ could reduce it / offset it if I generate enough expenses right?
Yes that's an option, but you will have to︇ pay tax on that generated 1M in the B.V. eventually, and if you realize the︈ profits on the generated 1M in order to finance your own home you will have︉ to pay corporate tax on those realized profits, so you won't have 1M but 775.000.︊
But what if your 1M becomes 5M, then you will have 4M sitting in the︋ B.V. ready to be taxed.
Putting BTC into a B.V. is not something I would︌ do.
Yes you can offset that by making enough expenses, but the Dutch taxman is︍ pretty strict on doing personal expenses from your company, so if that is your plan︎ it would stay away from it.
One other problem with a B.V. is that you️ will to pay a minimum salary of 47000 which will be taxed as personal income tax. You might not have to because there will be very little active trading but that is something you should discuss with your accountant.
But what if your 1M becomes 5M, then you will have 4M sitting in the︋ B.V. ready to be taxed.
Putting BTC into a B.V. is not something I would︌ do.
Yes you can offset that by making enough expenses, but the Dutch taxman is︍ pretty strict on doing personal expenses from your company, so if that is your plan︎ it would stay away from it.
One other problem with a B.V. is that you️ will to pay a minimum salary of 47000 which will be taxed as personal income tax. You might not have to because there will be very little active trading but that is something you should discuss with your accountant.
Really valuable inputs thanks for that.... very︅ much appreciated. So I am left with 2 options (1) Pay 1.5-2% wealth tax every︆ year and stay in NL or (2) Fu&* off from NL and maybe sell small︇ portion before I do that to have nice cash flow either from renting out property︈ or dividend paying stocks
If you are unemployed and bitcoin is your only source of income you could also decide to move your mortgage from box1 to box3 and you can deduct the amount of the mortgage from your net worth. 1M mortgage and 1M in BTC will︀ result in no tax in box3. But if you are employed you most likely better︁ off keeping your mortgage in box1 because of more deductions.
But yeah in terms of︂ lowering your tax bill it would be better the get out of the Netherlands, but︃ to be honest I think paying taxes on BTC isn't that bad in the Netherlands.︄ The only reason I would move out of the Netherlands if you have active income︅ or low yielding investments but huge net worth, but for BTC the Netherlands is actually︆ a really good place imo. Just run some calculations on how much tax you would︇ have paid in the Netherlands vs the US or any other country with capital gains︈ tax.
But yeah in terms of︂ lowering your tax bill it would be better the get out of the Netherlands, but︃ to be honest I think paying taxes on BTC isn't that bad in the Netherlands.︄ The only reason I would move out of the Netherlands if you have active income︅ or low yielding investments but huge net worth, but for BTC the Netherlands is actually︆ a really good place imo. Just run some calculations on how much tax you would︇ have paid in the Netherlands vs the US or any other country with capital gains︈ tax.
- Status