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Is there anything good that can be done in Italy or is best avoided?

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I don't really consider AirBnb an investment at al..‍ It's more a way to make some money on the side if you have spare⁠ rooms. If one really wants to go into the hospitality sector (which is not my⁤ case) there are better ways to make a profit out of it, such as you⁣ do your own marketing, you build your own website, etc.

I have used AirBnb in⁢ the past. It gives the idea of something cheap and amateurish.

Plus the idea of︀ having drunken tourists pissing and puking around my house puts me off big time.
 
Yes I know that many are into that. Just minding after‍ these people is not for me. What I expect from running a business is make⁠ money, not socialising with drunken tourists. I've done it in my younger years and now⁤ I have enough.
 
I use AirBNB apartments whenever I travel. I loathe‍ hotels -- and AirBNB apartments provide much more value for the money than a hotel⁠ room. If you rent from a Super Host or someone with great reviews, it is⁤ far from cheap and amateurish.

As a business model, many investors have success with AirBNB⁣ In fact, if you have three or four units in an area, you can live⁢ for free by moving into whichever unit is not currently rented. Admittedly, that suitcase shuffle︀ is definitely a younger man's game, for sure.
 
If anybody is interested in AirBnb btw, it's best to actually check what people in‌ your area are making from AirBnb... then you can decide if it's worth the hassle:‍
https://www.airdna.co/vacation-rental-data/app/cy/default/larnaka/overview
You can see what seasons are the best, how much you make on average⁠ in good\bad times and how much competition you have. Can even spy on particular competitors⁤ to see how booked they are and see if you can copy whatever specific features⁣ they offer (Netflix, etc). Super useful to know before you go into that.

Imho Airbnb⁢ provides a lot more value than hotels usually and the rooms\services are better and cheaper,︀ also in almost all cases you can message hosts directly and get some extra discount︁ (or just pay them in cash after staying officially just for a few days and︂ save on the commission). Plenty of people make good money and if you take into︃ account all the hassle that goes into managing\licensing brand\regulation\salaries\cleaning in hotels, AirBnb is a no︄ brainer. But of course it all depends on your location.
 
hotels any day of the week for me. but I know there are incentives for‌ turning old houses into airbnbs and people leverages that.
but I agree with @spagetifressa, renting/sharing/tenants it is a big pain in the a*s if it's not at scale.
~~~
I've got this one from a friends chat, it's LONG, based on a chat between‍ a few italian friends, I think it's better than an Doing Business report, tweaked and⁠ fixed as far I could. He allowed me to post it here, forgive grammar, he⁤ doesn't care when he's not paid for and me neither.
But it should give you⁣ a good picture 🙂
~~~
  • Mafia is not the biggest issue for your business. Sure it's⁢ a big issue nationwide and probably a big cause too, but what do I mean︀ is that you'll never be directly hit by them, unless you open a street-facing business︁ close to one of their homes... like central naples, calabria, parts of sicily. e.g. there︂ are neighborhoods in Naples where police called it a day and doesn't plan to enter︃ anytime soon...
    If you open a shop in those areas, sooner or later someone will︄ come to your door, to ask your monthly fees for the local family "protection"... and︅ if you don't pay, your shiny shop either goes BOOM or fire.
    Outside of those︆ zones (aka the other 90% of italy) they work smarter/quietly: bribery, drug selling, prostitution, refugee/immigration︇ centers, and anywhere there's public money to grab. So they'll win bids/tenders by corrupting public︈ employees and threatening their competitors, that kind of things.
    that's why roads are s**t.

    A TYPICAL ITALIAN ROAD CONSTRUCTION SITE, "supervised by mafia", till a few years ago (now rules︉ are tighter, they don't do this explicit anymore but pretty sure it's still happening):
    Mafia wins the national tender bid "somehow" using someone legit as a nominee, they then contract︊ a friendly local business that has to build the road very cheaply, because they also︋ have to pay back a big fee to the mafia. So they skimp on materials,︌ quality, then money ends (they do fraudulent bankruptcy), and the construction site stops half way...︍
    investigations begin, after years only a small fish ("nominee") will be arrested, the state issues︎ a new tender to complete the road, other money will be required as it's nearly️ impossible to get the old money back.
    The first part of the road will last‌ 10 years as it was poorly built. When the second part will be completed, 10‍ years later, the first part will be already in poor shape, tarmac cracked etc (never⁠ used) and has to be rebuilt... new tender, "new company", "new people", "new bankruptcy". Wash,⁤ rinse, repeat, half job bankruptcy elsewhere.
    Everything ran like this for decades and it was⁣ such a joke.
    They had/have men in politics, police, military, businesses, local counties, ministries, religion⁢ etc
    Judges/police that investigated deeply such things were either killed or got serious family life︀ threats and moved away or tamed it down.
    Also mafia is global now, they focus︁ towards much bigger international markets. They've got plenty of money, no need to do the︂ old dirty stuff. They run clean businesses too now with the laundered money. They've got︃ ties everywhere, in every country. Any huge infrastructure anywhere in europe, you can bet a︄ lil share of it is going to mafia.
  • Even when there's no mafia affiliation, there︅ are similar circumstances: I agree on the masonic and nepotism comments, if you aren't in︆ the right circles, especially when you work in the public sector, you don't get the︇ info you need in time, there's always that mysterious one ahead of you in every︈ public tendering, you don't get help/aka "the push" in italian. You don't get hired easily︉ in some public places, even if you're fully qualified for the job, unless you know︊ this or that guy and he pushes you.
    Italians are like Brits on some aspects:︋ they complain a lot about everything, but if you go check, there's a pretty good︌ chance the more noisy ones are first taking advantage of shortcuts.
  • The big issue in︍ Italy is the economy: is really down the shitter. Apart from the big international︎ businesses/industries, the whole country is floating pretty much on parents savings, financing and state benefits/pensions.️
    The latest populist gov gave benefits to all and they say by doing that they‌ "ended poverty".
    It's easy to get 700/1000€ in benefits per month now. The entry level‍ salaries were around 1000€ or lower = people don't want to work anymore, they now⁠ prefer the benefits... or they work off the books and gets best of both worlds.⁤ There are millions on benefits, it's impossible to check them all thoroughly.
    The same gov⁣ also hired thousands of part time job-centers employees, and paid them 2k/month for 2 years⁢ for doing literally nothing, as they didn't even had offices nor computers nor a working︀ infrastructure, nor the lists of unemployed people.
    Everyone knows the boat is sinking, many are︁ on "panic mode": no more children, the population age is very old, taking no risks︂ either financially nor in new businesses, saving more, less money going around, zero innovation, no︃ real innovative startups survive, unless they are BS backed by eu/govt etc
    After the euro︄ onset and its strong exchange rate against the old lira, inflation, debt, huge public spending︅ in the '80s and now budget cuts to counter that, taxes are always on the︆ rise and services always poorer. The middle class got way poorer than it was.
    And many of them, especially the private employees and sole traders, they risk to get even︇ poorer when they'll reach retirement age.
    It's like the rich get richer, the middle gets︈ crushed down close to the poor.
    Just as a reminder, in 2020 300k small businesses︉ were dissolved.

    let me write a few more issues:


  • one could say that the︊ italian constitution has been written by communists after the second world war. it pretty much︋ says that the state must give you everything. Plenty of champagne socialists around. Everything is︌ balanced and counterbalanced... so many entities, so many agencies, so many people, too much of︍ everything. They are experts on talking and eventually changing everything to change nothing. There's no︎ long term strategy, it's like everyone is there for the salary. It's impossible to change️ things as they would be unconstitutional, and the big share of low income voters would‌ never vote to change the constitution.

  • justice. criminal trials last around 3 years on‍ average, civil lawsuits last up to 6 years or even more. Now imagine if someone⁠ sues you or vice versa...
    If a thief held you at gunpoint inside your house⁤ and you hit him, he falls on the ground and gets badly hurt, he'll get⁣ no jail (probably just a few days in jail then house arrests). Then he can⁢ also sue you for his damages... and the state will pay his lawyer too, as︀ he doesn't have an "official" income. Also he will get state benefits for life if︁ ends up disabled. So you end up being f*cked twice...

  • crime pays in Italy. petty crimes are very diffuse in the cities, pickpockets/bag/watch/phone-snatchers in every tourist spot, villa robberies︂ in the richest north areas happen frequently. If you'll see bars on windows even in︃ some expensive villas, at least on ground floor, you now know why.

  • public sector. It's a giant money pit. Anything from schools, to military up to the parliament, everything︄ revolves around Pareto's rule: out of ten people, there are like 2 really hard workers,︅ the other 8 doing only god knows what and btw, where are they? managers turn︆ a blind eye too, because if one tries to fix things, he'll be the only︇ one against the flow and he'll be the only one held accountable, so it's anarchy.︈
    The majority have been hired in the past century by nepotism/direct connections/political affiliation and are︉ utterly useless. Overpaid, their pension will be close to or greater than their salary is︊ and, once they're in, it's nearly impossible to fire them by law. A good number︋ of them are "hidden" inside ministry and govt palaces, away from the public, with super︌ high salaries vs the private sector, doing nearly nothing all day long, for their entire︍ life. Public tv (you're forced to pay it) is another fun place if you are︎ into tracing employees family trees.

  • if you do B2B, be careful as many small️ businesses run on low cash flow (for tax reasons) and usually pay very late. I‌ can only imagine now with covid,

  • customer support is s**t, especially post-sales. they really make‍ you feel the issue is yours. It's getting better but is still s**t. You will⁠ find exceptions beyond any means, but on average is s**t.

  • debt collection is very expensive⁤ as courts and lawyers are, so unless the amount is huge, you just hope and⁣ pray.

  • tax wedge is very high and toxic social unions. if you have to⁢ hire (and fire), god bless you! if you got a lazy/bad worker that's ruining your︀ company culture, he'll go to the union and they'll piss you off to death in︁ any way. Strikes, media. You can't fire it easily, easiest way is to pay him︂ to walk away.

  • VAT is high and, as other taxes, you have to pay it︃ in advance too. e.g. in december you'll pay the VAT for the next year based︄ on current years one...

  • country is very traditional outside the big cities (i like it,︅ every village has different food, still talk different dialects, but if you don't speak Italian︆ everything is 10x harder, if you're black then it's like 50x).

  • no meritocracy. stagnant︇ jobs market. you start working as waiter, you will end your life exactly like that,︈ same title, only a little increase in salary during the whole career. Maybe you'll also︉ work extra time off the books, so you'll pension will be s**t too.

  • healthcare i︊s "free", actually it's paid off income tax (19% of it iirc) but low income︋ people says it's "free" as they don't pay any of it... When/where it works, it's︌ ok they tell me. But it's another giant mafia money-pit... avoid the south. There's an︍ hospital in calabria (ndrangheta mafia region) that has 1 billion debts and nobody knew/checked where︎ the money went 😱). the queues are huge for anything non life threatening (months for️ exams), and many still prefer to pay and go to the private clinics. Private healthcare‌ is great and not that expensive and everything gets done quickly.

  • anything fun is surtaxed‍. the car taxes are already way higher than other european countries. On top of⁠ that, engines over 250bhp will pay a luxury surtax, and it gets quickly in the⁤ thousands for anything over 300bhp. if your house has a pool then it should go⁣ on an higher tax band. boats are taxed, airplanes, helicopters, all luxury taxes. It nearly⁢ killed all the luxury industries, luckily they converted to export to richer markets (UAE, China︀ etc). tax on music, open air parties, there's even a tax if you fly the︁ national flag either on a mast or from a balcony (140eur/year) e.g. hotels.

  • there's an︂ economic military police that can stop you on the road (and will always stop supercars)︃ and do background checks at their will, on income, business etc this on top of︄ the tax agency

  • there are thousands of laws, millions of commas, nobody really follows︅ them, it's impossible to. They are so complex that different lawyers/judges read them differently.

  • stimulus checks were embarrassing for businesses, unlike other countries. many entrepreneurs still got nothing. some got︆ like 2k for a 200k revenue loss.

  • social envy is very strong, unless you're a︇ football player or rockstar or TV star. Average thought about entrepreneurs,
    if rich/successful: "look at︈ him, he's a tax evader, he's got rich stealing public money, oh I'm going to︉ scratch his Ferrari", even knowing they guy is paying ~6k surtax each year on that︊ car...
    if poor/bad entrepreneur "it's fine, good guy, we can be friends". Many rich people︋ know this and keep their wealth inside their fences.

  • all of the above must be︌ added to a lot of bureaucracy, every small thing is a paper nightmare. Either︍ conflicting papers from multiple agency for a simple thing or, when they beg to be︎ IT savvy, all you get is a non working wordpress website that crashes every time️ there's more than one people online. You'll learn every possible slur and swear quite fast‌ because of this.
  • tax rates (including social contributions): it can get close to 60%. Also, you have to pay this year final down payment and at the same time next‍ year's deposit (60%) in advance based on current year revenue... it's very easy to do⁠ mistakes and ending up without cash flow just for that reason. You can't do anything⁤ of this stuff alone, you need a good tax avoidance expert, a regular CPA just⁣ doesn't cut it. smi(&%

  • tax agency intimidating letters: we found an error on your (insert⁢ very old year here) tax accounts. it was 20€ error, but you never fixed it.︀ Now you have to pay that, plus interests, plus fine, plus fees. Those 20 eur︁ are now somehow 2500€. You go to their office and they scream at you, if︂ there's not a lawyer with you. Then you read the news and you better pay︃ now or god knows how they'll become 20k€ in a few years. Good people get︄ scared and pay. Criminals don't even open the letters if they see it's from them,︅ they own nothing on their name so they can't get anything off them.
    Also if︆ you're a VIP and throw s**t at them while also committing international tax crimes and︇ your brother is a big influential politician or even ministry, then you can settle it︈ all quickly at a very convenient rate...
the '80s were the golden era of Italy.︉ After that it only got worse.
Those are the bad points, the good ones are︊ the one everyone knows. Food, sun (not in Milan, it can get shittier than London︋ there...), luxury stuff, parties, women, reckless driving/speeding and little chance of being caught(it is a︌ plus right? 😀), sardinian beaches, arts(fashion and the likes), coffee, the "your not going to︍ jail" unless you really kill someone... if you are ruthless you'll profit there.

In Italy︎ you can have everything starting from this and even better:

to some of the ugliest and worst hoods⁠ in the world, it can get much worse than this:

Spain and Italy are very similar on many things.
I lived in both and⁢ move frequently around.
Spaniards are more easy going, open minded and enjoy more life. Infrastructure︀ is much better in Spain. Cities are cleaner in Spain. Many things are cheaper in︁ Spain.
While Italy has more quality "on paper" (e.g. most UNESCO Heritage sites in the︂ world), on average it's really badly handled and rotting away. And it's really a shame.︃
Many Italians are living it as a sinking ship, and that doesn't help.
I think︄ Spaniards are in a better condition right now, even though they should know they'll be︅ the next in line...
If I had really to pick a Mediterranean high tax country︆ for living year round (and not rich enough for the non-dom regimes), I'd chose Spain︇ over Italy, while it lasts. I'd place the business in the Canaries with the tax︈ discount (ZEC, 4% CT and lower VAT) and maybe live in the summer months around︉ murcia, valencia or thereabout.
Everyone I know that had a business in Italy and relocated︊ it to the Canaries, they're as happy as they could be.

This unless you are︋ UHNWI and really love italy.
In that case the italian non-dom is a gift(territorial taxation,︌ 100k lump sum). the sardinian beaches, Tuscany wine yards, venezia gondolas are awaiting you.
You'll be welcomed and supported everywhere.
But know that's only about the income taxes, you'll have︍ to pay capital gains if you don't have the correct setup. You'll also still have︎ to pay all the luxury surtaxes. But they're nothing and when you have that kind️ of money, everything can be bypassed legally...
 
What you mention about corruption, poor healthcare, nepotism, everything going slow, lack of transparency and‌ so on
Does it apply to northern wealthier part as well or only the south?‍
 
Investing in Italy doesn't make any sense, especially buying houses as that's what's more under‌ the radar of the tax authorities. I'm Italian, but resident in Dubai (fiscally) and Spain‍ (where I have an address for the Italian Government). Living in Italy is doable (⁠ I prefer Spain to Italy, but that's down to personal preference ) and of course⁤ it's much better than living in the UK, just don't try to do it legally.⁣ If you work remotely, just rent something without a contract and no one will ever⁢ bother you, don't open a bank account in Italy, don't make an italian SIM (︀ you can do a spanish one and it works like an italian one ) and︁ just live under the radar. But if you do something official, like buying a house,︂ you get yourself into troubles.
 
I agree don't make any sense to invest in Italy, it's a money pit.
Your taxes aren't coming back at you as services, but they are for a big share‌ going in someone else's pockets. Never forget about that.
Yes it's true the north is‍ more fast paced and the rat race is strong. N is richer, more people so⁠ more ways to make money, so maybe you get a bit more "air" out of⁤ it.
But you are still feeding the beast with your taxes and only a small⁣ of it comes back.
Either be the mafia, lazy freeloaders on benefits, corrupted politicians/employees from⁢ the local council up to the president's palace. Oh BTW, the latter costs more than︀ the white house yearly, enough said.

Mafia estimated extortion from businesses it's 160 mln per︁ year, and the can launder them easily:
https://newsbook.com.mt/en/business...ans-they-were-still-picking-up-pieces-of-her/
Over a million Italians earn a living︂ from politics
https://www.thelocal.it/20131028/over-a-million-italians-earn-a-living-from-politics/
Italian MPs twice as pricey as German MPs
https://www.thelocal.it/20131031/italian-mps-twice-as-pricey-as-German-MPs/
Quirinal Palace costs︃ over double Queen's royal residences, more than white house
http://www.italianinsider.it/?q=node/4952
Italian's quirinal palace = 240mln per year = 750 employees
USA white house = 130mln per year = 370 employees

that's only the president's palace. It's all like that, from the top down to the︄ smallest village council.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/608687/EPRS_STU(2017)608687_EN.pdffrom the above link:

you see︎ what I mean? DO NOT FEED THE BEAST.

You surely could live well there. As️ I said it's cheap in many areas. If you got a decent amount of money‌ and can find a way to pay a fair share of taxes is not that‍ bad, as long as you don't have to rely on state. And you will enjoy⁠ it for a while.
I mean go there on holidays. Explore it, it's great.
But do not start a business there if you don't know how things work.
You'll get⁤ burnt. Another thing is they don't pay for their mistakes. Be it a judge, tax⁣ employee, council employee.
If you pay more taxes than due by error, they'll never acknowledge⁢ it and will be hard fight to have it back. They'll not answer and you'll︀ have to sue them, that'll cost you time(years) and money(thousands).

It's not conspiracy, the rules︁ are scripted to keep you at the "barely scraping level", to rely on the state.︂ Self-realization as individual through entrepreneurship is almost forbidden, unless you feed the system, politics, mafia.︃ Every smart ones with a big business idea ran away.
That's why everyone's dream in︄ Italy is to become a "public servant". It's like winning the lottery.
If you're sole︅ trader, anywhere past ~50k gross per year you are in the rich tax bracket (︆ rof/% ), and they'll start to hammer you to death either with taxation or bureaucracy or︇ pension contributions (probably you'll never anything past the minimum pension, public servants get better pension︈ laws too, plenty of sick days, should I say months... etc).
You'll end up working︉ your a*s for less than what a junior public servant makes.
There are new tax︊ regimes for new sole traders, like 5 or 15% of income tax for a few︋ years. But they are like a gateway drug, after those few years, you'll go into︌ regular regimes and if you're not "creative", you'll be taxed to death.
These low taxes︍ were just put in place a few years ago. Now they are already talking about︎ upping it back to at least 23% (you still have to add pension etc).

It's not impossible to do it. But it'll be much much harder than UK.
I know️ brits living in italy. They all say yeah good food, good weather but nothing works,‌ and I still don't know why.
I know italians living in UK. They say shitty‍ weather, shitty housing but stuff works and I was able to start a successful business.⁠
I lived in UK too years ago. I have the whole vision. I know UK⁤ these days is going south too, but you get the gist.
All the deep pockets⁣ Italian entrepreneurs have inherited the company from their parents, and grandparents and so on.
The "self made man" through business in Italy is almost impossible these days.
Unless you scam⁢ people 🙂
 
Can I buy a small(ish)︃ piece of land, sleeping in a camper,staying there a few months a year and still︄ being non resident for fiscal reasons? There are some really cheap pieces of land in︅ Calabria and I'm tempted.
 
Why you say that buying︃ an apartment, f.ex. in some holiday place, would get you in trouble, if you are︄ still officially expat and paying taxes somewhere else, while leaving no persistent traces in italy︅ (like paying cash etc)?
As for the sim card, does the taxman have access to︆ that? I guess only with an investigation pending, or? Asking this because i know that︇ operators, especially cheap ones, do terminate the contracts of those staying abroad for too long,︈ citing rules that expect users to use the card more at home than abroad in︉ a period of 4 months. 🙂
And also, why are you officially in Spain instead of︊ Dubai? Would the italian taxman be after you if they knew?
 
True that. EU is nuts. USA is evil too. But if you had to choose where‌ to incorporate a company: Italy or the Netherlands or Cyprus even Estonia or BG/RO... would‍ you still choose Italy? even your man (your avatar, a former Italian premier) hides his⁠ money in the Caribbean smi(&%

Italian tax agency has an internal tax haven black list other than the EU one.⁢ IIRC UAE is on it?
When you move away you must register as an expat︀ and have to tell them your foreign address.
They tell it's for embassy/voting as you're︁ still keeping the citizenship even if you live away.
In fact, if you never paid︂ taxes in italy for a decade, then moved straight to a Burj Khalifa flat address,︃ don't you think they'll start suspecting something?
Tax agency has access to the expat lists.︄ They have profiles of the risky ones (active bank accounts, land, house, rent, credit cards︅ etc) and try to target to see if they can get something out of them.︆
They're not going after the seasonal italian waiter in dubai marina. They're going after HNWI,︇ entrepreneurs, businessmen, etc
They don't have enough budget to investigate anyone. They have some risk︈ profiles based on indicias.
if they get a crs or country report right after you︉ moved and says you already owned a bank account in the UAE before you left︊ your home country, they'll try to tax that.

also many eu countries have an exit︋ tax, e.g. sweden
https://nomoretax.eu/sweden-and-the-annoying-exit-tax/don't know how italy does it, but I think it should︌ be in place pretty much anywhere inside the EU.
 
if you pay taxes elsewhere there is no issue!I︂ mean the italian government would have nothing to say, that's perfectly legal, you are just︃ buying a second home.
I've been resident outside of Italy since 2013, being resident in︄ Spain is kind of "safer" from tax perspective as UAE is blacklisted for residents. If︅ you ever go back to being an italian resident ( something I do not ever︆ think I will do ), if you come from UAE you are far more likely︇ to be investigated.
 
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