Ireland vs Cyprus for offshore company formation

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LisaSimpson

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Dec 11, 2016
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I have incorporated a company in Ireland and I wanted to share my experience here. First of all, the irish law requires a secretary when there is only one director. This means that for every single official paper, it has to be counter signed by the secretary: (opening a bank account, submitting tax paper to the Irish authorities)

In my case, my agent forced me to choose bank of ireland even if I wanted to choose AIB. By the way, I didn't like bank of ireland, they didn't use emails. you had to call them or they called me when there were an issue. For example, one of my pro credit card payment has been rejected and even if I mentioned on the form of bank of ireland that my preferred way of communicating was the email, no one tried to send me an email. They tried to call me and I thought it was a spam call or that it came from a website support team.

The Irish law and administration is more complicated than the Cyprus law even if you are a native english speaker. For example, in ireland there is a withholding tax if you can't prove your fiscal residency. If for instance, you pay tax nowhere or if you live in a country with no tax treaty with ireland, they apply a 20% withholding tax on your dividends on top of the 12,5%
I thought, well; it is ook i am a european, and then I discovered it is much more difficult than I thought to justify my fiscal residency.

With hindsight, I understood how Google succeeded in setting up in Ireland, they hired local people. If you have enough money to pay your own people in Ireland, it is a great jurisdiction, if you have to hire agents it is not going to be the same. I had problem with my first agent. They didn't counter signed my tax paper. I hide to change the agent very quickly before the tax deadline.

Then, all professional services in Ireland are outrageously expensive: VPS server (no power, no storage and expensive), mobile phones (40 euros / month for basic mobile phone subscription). that is the same for everything in ireland. Everything is overpriced. the telecommunication companies are sharks. It is very expensive to stay in Dublin. I guess one night is like 90 euros in a basic hotel. For sure, in Cyprus things are cheaper.

Ok in Cyprus, you have to hire a auditor at the end of the year but there are ways to reduce the number of invoices in your bookkeeping to lower the audit costs. People in Cyprus understands that you don't incorporate in Cyprus to live in Cyprus. The bank representatives are better in Cyprus than in Ireland. They are welcoming and they understand why you are in cyprus. You aren't in cyprus to sell products to cyprus people.

I have understood in Ireland that few people understood the offshore thing (bank, agents). It is more like a vague opportunity for them. It is difficult to give you striking examples but it is about many small issues and when you put them together it gets big and uninteresting.

Also for non european citizen, there is a special process for you if you don't have a nominee. I think it is always cheaper to have a nominee.
CRO - Company Officers
 
I have incorporated a company in Ireland and I wanted to share my experience here.‌ First of all, the irish law requires a secretary when there is only one director.‍ This means that for every single official paper, it has to be counter signed by⁠ the secretary: (opening a bank account, submitting tax paper to the Irish authorities)
__________

I believe what you mean is every important official document requires 2 signatures.
If there are⁤ not 2 directors(and a nominee director is more expensive than a nominee secretary) -- you⁣ need a secretary so that you can have 2 signatures.

As for most of the⁢ problems, sounds similar to what I've seen.
It's very critical to look closely at who︀ you work with there -- which is the reason I went with Deloitte instead of︁ cheaper options.

Besides the cost, the dividends issues, and bank of Ireland being a mess,︂ were there any other big issues?

The advantage of Ireland over Cyprus, from what I︃ saw, is that they are better organised and things get moving faster than Cyprus.
Top agencies in Ireland get back to you in a day or two -> when in︄ Cyprus, they take their dear time!
"We can't help you set up until 2 weeks︅ from now, everybody is on vacation"
Did I miss something on that?
 
Every important official document requires 2 signatures.

What you said about people in Cyprus is‌ very true. The cypriot agencies do they jobs very slowly. Unfortunately, I also faced the‍ very same issue in Ireland.

My first agent in Ireland was Bizcube. I went to⁠ Ireland and I discovered there office days were 2 or 3 days every week. Later⁤ on, I discovered they checked their email inbox only once every week. This is also⁣ why I decided to leave.

I noticed that many online websites chose cyprus rather Ireland.⁢ Even after the new law that impose people to get an audit of their bookkeeping︀ every year, people didn't move to Ireland. I think there is a reason for that.︁

Here if someone has any experience with Cyprus and the audit it would be welcome.︂
 
what exactly do you want to know.

Personally I send‍ my Excel sheet to my agent each year with some of the underlaying documents and⁠ he do the magic, so I get an invoice aprox 3000 euro and done.. never⁤ touch this stuff.
 
That is what I wanted to know. This is just an administrative⁤ procedure. So, for an IT consultant I would encourage to go for Cyprus rather than⁣ Ireland. An IT consultant has few transactions (salaries and pro expenses) and the Cyprus audit⁢ would not cost too much.

If I understand it well, the 3000 euros is only︀ for the audit? it is not the yearly virtual office fee?
 
including accounting, dump questions‍ and audit. But it's a small company I have only doing 700K a year.
 
3000 euros isn't expensive for a 700k‍ turnover !
Cypriot auditors, knowing your turnover could take advantage of it by increasing their⁠ fees. That's what I saw in Latvia and Bulgaria.
 
exactly the higher the turnover the higher their fees!⁠

EUR 3000 to get accounting and book keeping for such an entity with such turnover⁤ is nothing. Most corporation pay 8 - 12K for the same with turnovers of about⁣ 500k - to 1M
 
great review you left there OP! From my experience with my Cyprus company which I‌ have had the last few years it's easy to manage and it's no headache to‍ do accounting and that stuff! I agree totally unless there is a very good reason⁠ to choose Malta or Bulgaria (as mentioned in a few other threads) or you want⁤ to move to Malta I would anytime again setup my company in Cyprus.
 
I also had an issue with the mobile phone company EIR. I needed a mobile‌ phone to open the business bank account. I went to an EIR phone store in‍ Dublin. Some seller told me to go for a monthly subscription. I ended up paying⁠ 35 euros / month for a phone number that was useless because after opening the⁤ bank account I switched to my local phone number from my country and they accepted⁣ it. But I think I would not have been able to open a bank account⁢ without an Irish mobile phone number. Today it is even more expensive it is 40︀ euros/month for basic mobile phone subscription.
eir Broadband, Phone, TV and Mobile
It looks like︁ now virgin offers cheap sim only cards:
Sim Only Plans & Unlimited 4G Data, Calls︂ & Texts - Virgin Media
but it is my story. In fact, when I wanted︃ to terminate the account they did everything in their power to prevent me to do︄ it. I had to call their hotline several times. I didn't understand very well because︅ the quality of the line wasn't good (I think their hotline is located in India).︆
 
I wanted to give you some news about my Irish company. Back in June, I‌ have returned my 12,5% corporate tax. I did it online but everything was blocked because‍ in Ireland if you are the only directory, you have to hire a secretary that⁠ must countersign every administrative paper you produce (bank opening, corporate tax return, any tax return).⁤
The digital certificate of my secretary didn't work. I had to print a signature page,⁣ send it to Ireland for the secretary to sign the page, send it back to⁢ me, and then I had to send it back to the Irish revenue.
I think︀ that it is quite complicated, dodgy.

I am sure this type of thing does not︁ happen in Cyprus.

Also every year, I should be able to prove that I live︂ in Europe. I must keep proof of residency provided by my local tax authorities. If︃ I don't do it, they may ask me to pay 25% on every fund that︄ I sent back to my country of residence. So, for instance, if I forgot to︅ issue a proof of residency issued by my local tax authority 2 years ago, they︆ can ask me to pay 25% on top of all the dividends I paid myself︇ 2 years ago.

Now I understand why Google and Facebook could stay in Ireland. They︈ have their people in Ireland. So, they can't be any problems. because when they pay︉ back dividends that is not to individuals but companies.
Ireland is not made for people︊ who want to retrieve money.
 
This is an awesome review @LisaSimpson - thanks for spending time writing it here. I‌ believe you are right, Ireland is for large corporation which they also may targeting not‍ for the small fish.
 
I just wanted to add, that in Ireland banks don't understand that you do offshore.‌ They consider you are an onshore company. Don't talk about Offshore to your Irish bank‍ representative if you have one, they are very very very uncomfortable about it. On the⁠ other hand, in Cyprus, people are much more understanding.

Once again, I will take the⁤ example of Google and Facebook Ireland. Those two companies are not offshore they have thousands⁣ of employees in Ireland.

When you come to Ireland, and you have your virtual office,⁢ that's another story. The corporate ecosystem of Ireland has nothing to welcome you. For example,︀ accountants, banks may refuse to work with you. They have a backward mindset. I am︁ sorry to say it so like this but when you see that Bank of Ireland︂ advertises using a sheep farmer on its documents. That's not good.

On the other hand,︃ in Estonia and Cyprus, everybody is aware of offshore companies. Even the tax authorities of︄ Estonia and Cyprus know what you are doing.

Also when you return tax in Ireland,︅ it is complicated. You must do the first return at the end of the year︆ then a second one after the fiscal year-end. One to show your business still exists,︇ in the tax return, you enter your figure twice, once in a form online and︈ once you have to compute a PDF file with your figure a second time mentioning︉ that your business is a micro business. If you get it wrong... boom the tax︊ authorities fall on your back.

that said, the number one problem with Ireland is the︋ secretary, they are almighty. Even if they are not part of your business, they can︌ prevent you to open a bank account because all the form to open a corporate︍ bank account in Ireland requires the signature of your secretary.
When you return ANY official︎ paper to the Irish authority, you need the signature of your Irish secretary.
The secretary️ is a bit like a nominee without the benefit of a nominee (anonymity).
 
Great review, so what you say is, Ireland is for large corporations and Cyprus is‌ for the small man who has some money safed up for when he gets old‍ right?
 
Clemens, it is not a black and white situation.⁠ It is a bit complicated.

I will try to make it clear. I am sorry⁤ I must write a lot of text.

I faced major issues with the local agents.⁣ The agent is more powerful than anywhere else because it is your secretary. This means⁢ you need the signature of the agent to open a bank account, return all the︀ official papers. The first agent forced me to open a bank account at Bank of︁ Ireland and I didn't want to open a bank account at Bank of ireland.
I discovered that my agent worked only 2 days every week and this company just ignored︂ my emails. So I took a different agent called company bureau from Dublin and I︃ pay around 750 euros per year.

Then, I face an issue with the new agent︄ in june 2019. Their digital signature (basically a file provided by the Irish revenue) didn't︅ work and I had to send them the annual paper return to sign. So, the︆ mail took 5 days to reach their office, 5 days to come back to me,︇ and then, that was me would had to send it back to the Irish revenue.︈ Normally, all of that should have been done online with digital signature.
Because of that,︉ my annual return was submitted days before the deadline. After the deadline you have to︊ pay daily fines for late annual return filing.

2 IRISH agents and two agents that︋ are not serious.

The only way to get around this issue would be to avoid︌ using an agent. It would be better to find a reliable local irish individual like︍ a retired person who could provide an address and a digital signature. Google and Facebook︎ can pay someone a full salary to perform those local tasks.... But I think that️ most people can't.

Conversely, I know webmasters of website who use Cyprus since a long‌ time ago and never complain about their agent, their bank, local prices in Cyprus. They‍ don't need anyone in Cyprus. The government of Cyprus is clever. The cypriot law is⁠ simpler than the Irish law. There is no gray area and no risk. In Cyprus⁤ you don't need 2 directors and one director and one secretary.

For your information, I⁣ knew a german dating website and an Italian company that used an Irish company. They⁢ both decided to wind up their Irish company. I think I will do the same︀ in the near future.
 
For those who aren't aware of it,
When facebook and google settled in Ireland, they‌ agreed a corporate tax with the Irish revenue. I guess that for google, It was‍ 2000 jobs in Ireland against 6% corporate tax. It is called tax rulings. you can⁠ pay less corporate tax if you bring jobs to the country.
 
Thanks for extra info. I don't think anyone around here can bring 2000+ jobs to‌ Ireland 😀
 
I have other things to say:

When I start up my company in Ireland, I‌ had to ask for a PPSN // This is a social security number. I think‍ it was required to have the right to pay the corporate tax 🙂

They misspelled my⁠ name and I had to ask them to modify my name not once but twice.⁤ It was not pleasant to get this PPS number

On top of that I just⁣ received an email from the Irish revenue to declare the beneficial owner of my company.⁢ It is a new administrative task.

I also forgot to tell you that when I︀ opened my bank account at the Bank of Ireland and the bank representative was very︁ embarrassed to talk about offshore stuff. It was for internet sales, so it was really︂ easy to justify it and get a server in Ireland, but for this gentleman, it︃ was a psychological issue.
I understood I could not get any understanding from my branch.︄ On the other hand, I don't know if you are aware of it but in︅ Cyprus, the bank representatives understand you and they don't try to avoid to talk about︆ subjects. This never happens in Cyprus.
Thinking about it, I think it was so unfair︇ that the Cyprus banks were badly hit by their crisis.
 
Why do you talk to the bank about "offshore" ? What is offshore about it?︈
A better term would be international sales/client.
 
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