So what you're saying is that the tax authorities in Switzerland are not as hysterical as the ones we know from Denmark? That sounds nice, and it makes me even more glad that︀ I packed my things and got out of that shithole.
Incorporation for non KYC
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Well, it is a nice place. Nice beaches and so. I like it. But for taxes, Europe is not the place to be. I consider Switzerland better than most of the rest, but it is also going down slowly now. But what surprises me is how Mullvad is able to operate from Sweden with an invoice like︀ this:
https://www.collegesidekick.com/study-docs/2610691I mean it does not even say how much VAT has been paid.︁ And it is just a bridge away from Denmark.
https://www.collegesidekick.com/study-docs/2610691I mean it does not even say how much VAT has been paid.︁ And it is just a bridge away from Denmark.
Mullvad's invoices are probably hard to use to claim back VAT for the buyer, but they are probably fine for Mullvad's own VAT filings. It's a Swedish company. The tax authority there wouldn't let it slide for this long. Mullvad's revenues for 2021 and 2022 were 97 million and 162 million SEK. The Swedish tax authority cares that enough︀ VAT is being paid by Mullvad, which they can probably satisfy well enough by using︁ the card information. Cards from cross-border financial institutions like Revolut and Wise might cause slight︂ overestimation for some countries (Belgium, Ireland, and Luxembourg, IIRC), though.
Regarding the invoices, so that is one thing which is interesting in Singapore. As it is possible to use receipt, without customer information instead of invoices.
So you're basically saying that the US entity would bill︄ the foreign entity which will not be considered reselling the servers / vps ? So︅ how is that foreign entity supposed to justify getting payment from hundreds / thousands of︆ customers and have a public website showing they provide hosting service ? This seems like︇ trouble brewing, and a worst solution in the long run.
KYC/AML is standard for financial︈ services, insurances, virtual asset providers etc... Unless i am mistaken there is no obligation for︉ KYC in the EU or at the moment in the US for IAAS.
So you're basically saying that the US entity would bill︄ the foreign entity which will not be considered reselling the servers / vps ? So︅ how is that foreign entity supposed to justify getting payment from hundreds / thousands of︆ customers and have a public website showing they provide hosting service ? This seems like︇ trouble brewing, and a worst solution in the long run.
KYC/AML is standard for financial︈ services, insurances, virtual asset providers etc... Unless i am mistaken there is no obligation for︉ KYC in the EU or at the moment in the US for IAAS.
Your framework is this
where you later stated that you have rented US infrastructure.
So, my assumption is/was that you︃ require to retain US operations thru US entity and infrastructure.
Our European companies are working with Equinix,︋ DigitalRealty and IronMountain as primary providers - data center owners and operators in EEA where︌ their KYC is/was performed routinely.
Even Swiss secondary providers are performing KYC with request to︍ identify the end users - SolarCom and their derivatives (they are using DigitalRealty/Interxion).
Do you︎ have ASN and own address scope or you get it from provider as well? The️ question is about your position in a chain - do you only rent U or whole racks with equipment? How do you secure the network - multihommed or?
I think that you do not comprehend the KYC requirements regarding IaaS and options you may have when proper corporate structure in favorable jurisdictions is set-up. I don't know your business model and can't go into any more assumptions, but one thing is sure - the era of anonymous cryptocurrency payments is soon to be over - if you don't structure your business in line with regulatory requirements, it will cost you much more than than you︀ may save by trying yesterday's solutions.
My idea was to shield the actual business with︁ one or more entities in appropriate jurisdiction(s) chained with separate agreements. US entity just leases︂ whatever it leases from provider. That entity provides certain services to another foreign entity(ies) such︃ as hyperscaled virtualization, metal-as-a-service etc. with a KYC. You actual hosting business should be the︄ last.
Layer upon layer.
where you later stated that you have rented US infrastructure.
So, my assumption is/was that you︃ require to retain US operations thru US entity and infrastructure.
Our European companies are working with Equinix,︋ DigitalRealty and IronMountain as primary providers - data center owners and operators in EEA where︌ their KYC is/was performed routinely.
Even Swiss secondary providers are performing KYC with request to︍ identify the end users - SolarCom and their derivatives (they are using DigitalRealty/Interxion).
Do you︎ have ASN and own address scope or you get it from provider as well? The️ question is about your position in a chain - do you only rent U or whole racks with equipment? How do you secure the network - multihommed or?
I think that you do not comprehend the KYC requirements regarding IaaS and options you may have when proper corporate structure in favorable jurisdictions is set-up. I don't know your business model and can't go into any more assumptions, but one thing is sure - the era of anonymous cryptocurrency payments is soon to be over - if you don't structure your business in line with regulatory requirements, it will cost you much more than than you︀ may save by trying yesterday's solutions.
My idea was to shield the actual business with︁ one or more entities in appropriate jurisdiction(s) chained with separate agreements. US entity just leases︂ whatever it leases from provider. That entity provides certain services to another foreign entity(ies) such︃ as hyperscaled virtualization, metal-as-a-service etc. with a KYC. You actual hosting business should be the︄ last.
Layer upon layer.
Yes they do. But not because they have to, but because as you said it's widely spread and accepted. Mostly to prevent fraud. As far as i am aware there is no law in EEA and US at the moment to force IAAS to do KYC, apart for the one that might pass in the US.
We don't have our own ASN at the moment. We rent bare metal and setup our︂ own virtualization on top of that.
We have some servers in the US. We have servers︅ in US, Canada and the EU. It would be a shame to have to get︆ ride of the US server but if that is what it takes then we'll do︇ it. We could also get rid of the US entity.
If you can link me the laws and official︎ texts that force IAAS to do KYC i'd be happy to be proven wrong. You're️ certainly right that i don't know the "options you may have when proper corporate structure in favorable jurisdictions is set-up." which is why i was posting here.
As far as we've looked into it, it is an everchanging system but there is no obligation as of now. I know that it will get harder and harder, to offer non KYC services however this is our niche and business model, so it is not an option to do KYC. Our business is setup with regulatory requirements, which are none at the moment. As it has been confirmed by accountant when we looked into Singapore, it would︀ also be possible there for now with receipt instead of invoices. I agree with you︁ that it's not likely to stay that way for very long, however we have no︂ choice but to keep trying to find a friendly environment.
I see but as the hosting business︇ even if it is the last is still leasing without kyc wouldn't it still count︈ as a reseller and be under the new law as soon as someone start looking?︉
does anyone knows any good All-in-one solution for incorporating and baking in Iceland, Switzerland, Liechtenstein︊ ? Which seems to be the location i see recommended the most.
We don't have our own ASN at the moment. We rent bare metal and setup our︂ own virtualization on top of that.
We have some servers in the US. We have servers︅ in US, Canada and the EU. It would be a shame to have to get︆ ride of the US server but if that is what it takes then we'll do︇ it. We could also get rid of the US entity.
If you can link me the laws and official︎ texts that force IAAS to do KYC i'd be happy to be proven wrong. You're️ certainly right that i don't know the "options you may have when proper corporate structure in favorable jurisdictions is set-up." which is why i was posting here.
As far as we've looked into it, it is an everchanging system but there is no obligation as of now. I know that it will get harder and harder, to offer non KYC services however this is our niche and business model, so it is not an option to do KYC. Our business is setup with regulatory requirements, which are none at the moment. As it has been confirmed by accountant when we looked into Singapore, it would︀ also be possible there for now with receipt instead of invoices. I agree with you︁ that it's not likely to stay that way for very long, however we have no︂ choice but to keep trying to find a friendly environment.
I see but as the hosting business︇ even if it is the last is still leasing without kyc wouldn't it still count︈ as a reseller and be under the new law as soon as someone start looking?︉
does anyone knows any good All-in-one solution for incorporating and baking in Iceland, Switzerland, Liechtenstein︊ ? Which seems to be the location i see recommended the most.
I don't understand how the tax authorities in Sweden allow that kind of invoice and approve︀ them as valid. Most laws are the same in Scandinavia, and today there must be︁ the name and address of the customer on the invoice for them to be valid.︂
If you rent the bare metal with US entity, you may resell it with KYC to another entity in different jurisdiction. Virtualization should be performed by second entity but VM/VC hosting should be offered with third entity, all in different jurisdictions. It would not constitute reselling between second and third entity as there would not be the same service.
Be creative and use clustering solution so you can combine resources from different jurisdictions.
I think that you are aware that you should adapt both︀ your business model and structure.
Be creative and use clustering solution so you can combine resources from different jurisdictions.
I think that you are aware that you should adapt both︀ your business model and structure.
I know personally one clever Swiss freelancer who is managing this at CH and LI for smaller and medium businesses that are seeking tailor-made solution. From what I have witnessed, she does her job well. Yet she insists on performing some due diligence on her clients, to prevent reputation risk with her partner lawyers, banks etc.
Honestly, I am not sure whether she is able to help you as your business might be too complicated or too large in scale – but I can ask her, if you︀ are interested.
Just a side-note: In my amateurish opinion, @mraleph is truly right here Incorporation for non KYC and here Incorporation for non KYC.
Honestly, I am not sure whether she is able to help you as your business might be too complicated or too large in scale – but I can ask her, if you︀ are interested.
Just a side-note: In my amateurish opinion, @mraleph is truly right here Incorporation for non KYC and here Incorporation for non KYC.
Just as predicted... On May 7, LocalMonero announced that, effective immediately, all new signups and advertisement postings for Monero (XMR) trades are disabled. On May 14, the platform will disable the trading of the privacy-focused crypto asset.
LocalMonero to shut down P2P exchange after seven years of operation
LocalMonero to shut down P2P exchange after seven years of operation
Thanks! At the moment we are looking into different options. But i'll︀ let you know if we need. I appreciate the offer.
I agree that he is right, i noted his︃ comments and will definitely consider them. However the setup he is referring too doesn't change︄ the core of the problem which is KYC for customers. His setup is a way︅ to be able to keep the US entity and the US servers by layering companies.︆ Which is great, but at the end of the day the company doing the hosting︇ business still need a jurisdiction where it can do so without KYC which is the︈ main point of the post. We do not have the funds now to be able︉ to layers 3, 4 or more companies to save the US business / servers, especially︊ considering that it is a fraction of our userbase. The mose important and urgent matter︋ is to incorporate somewhere where we don't need to publish customer information while doing our︌ taxes.
Damn... That sucks. Kraken️ also just dropped Monero for Germany. The last hope will be Haveno when it is ready for release.
I agree that he is right, i noted his︃ comments and will definitely consider them. However the setup he is referring too doesn't change︄ the core of the problem which is KYC for customers. His setup is a way︅ to be able to keep the US entity and the US servers by layering companies.︆ Which is great, but at the end of the day the company doing the hosting︇ business still need a jurisdiction where it can do so without KYC which is the︈ main point of the post. We do not have the funds now to be able︉ to layers 3, 4 or more companies to save the US business / servers, especially︊ considering that it is a fraction of our userbase. The mose important and urgent matter︋ is to incorporate somewhere where we don't need to publish customer information while doing our︌ taxes.
Damn... That sucks. Kraken️ also just dropped Monero for Germany. The last hope will be Haveno when it is ready for release.
I presume that your user base are natural persons and maybe some legal ones as well.
For a fraction of users, it's︀ not feasable to set-up layered structure. And especially if you don't own the infrastructure. But︁ you haven't presented that at the start.
Iceland may be a legal jurisdiction for your︂ company regarding KYC requirement for IaaS as some providers offer anonymous hosting. But, do a︃ reaserch about that.
Beware that payments are/will be regulated within AML framework hence you'll have︄ KYC requirement
You may upgrade︈ to MG and contact user @VESTANON - perhaps, their service can be of assistance regarding︉ your specific case.
For a fraction of users, it's︀ not feasable to set-up layered structure. And especially if you don't own the infrastructure. But︁ you haven't presented that at the start.
Iceland may be a legal jurisdiction for your︂ company regarding KYC requirement for IaaS as some providers offer anonymous hosting. But, do a︃ reaserch about that.
Beware that payments are/will be regulated within AML framework hence you'll have︄ KYC requirement
You may upgrade︈ to MG and contact user @VESTANON - perhaps, their service can be of assistance regarding︉ your specific case.
I also experience this right now.
First time I experienced it was when Cyprus went bankrupt about a decade ago and you had to upload an underlying document for every outbound transaction. Yes, this is not the same as this new USA legislation. Only mentioning it as it is nothing new.
More recent in Switzerland (postfinance︀ in 2018-2019) I had about once per month a request for documentation for inbound or︁ outbound transfers. The claim here had to do with sanctions.
Also in the Netherlands in︂ 2023-2024 banks ask at random for their underlying documents. Here a contract would also suffice.︃ In NL specifically it could also be the tax authorities that use the banks to︄ collect information to build their cases.
In general the following;
With b2b clients tax authorities︅ in both first and second world countries will not accept “email address only” when you︆ are being audited. The thought process here is VAT fraud.
For b2c you can get︇ away with less information on your invoice for as long as you mention the vat︈ and pay the vat. It depends a bit per jurisdiction but with lower amounts it︉ isn’t a big problem (yet).
However. things are changing. It won’t be years anymore before︊ you have to collect more information from your customers. In that sense, look into changing︋ your business model. Going to the next jurisdiction isn’t the solution.
First time I experienced it was when Cyprus went bankrupt about a decade ago and you had to upload an underlying document for every outbound transaction. Yes, this is not the same as this new USA legislation. Only mentioning it as it is nothing new.
More recent in Switzerland (postfinance︀ in 2018-2019) I had about once per month a request for documentation for inbound or︁ outbound transfers. The claim here had to do with sanctions.
Also in the Netherlands in︂ 2023-2024 banks ask at random for their underlying documents. Here a contract would also suffice.︃ In NL specifically it could also be the tax authorities that use the banks to︄ collect information to build their cases.
In general the following;
With b2b clients tax authorities︅ in both first and second world countries will not accept “email address only” when you︆ are being audited. The thought process here is VAT fraud.
For b2c you can get︇ away with less information on your invoice for as long as you mention the vat︈ and pay the vat. It depends a bit per jurisdiction but with lower amounts it︉ isn’t a big problem (yet).
However. things are changing. It won’t be years anymore before︊ you have to collect more information from your customers. In that sense, look into changing︋ your business model. Going to the next jurisdiction isn’t the solution.
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