I can't prove the origin of my bitcoins, problems with Spanish Ministry of Finance

[Josevbtc]

Yes I was reading about fake invoices and it seems a bad idea... I︆ dont want to go to jail.

My goal in life is not to be rich︇ and do anything, BUT, if I become rich, I buy a house and I have︈ no job but I have money, I can start some projets and be happy, and︉ sleep a lot!... And not be worried about money or jobs.

About Switzerland I know︊ they care about source of money, but maybe they dont care too much about bitcoin?︋ I really dont know... Anyway MAYBE I could have problems if my bitcoin is money︌ from drugs, and they dont care if my bitcoin come from a facebook seller, my︍ bitcoins is 100% legal but I can not prove how I bought them... I really︎ dont know, but some advisors (at least 3 of them) always talk about Switzerland when️ I tell them about bitcoin.

Some people told me︃ I can buy gold in Honk Kong... But I am not sure about that, I︄ need to learn a bit more about how to do...

About Spain, yes, is a︅ shitty country I know, but I live here! Its my country, my friends and family︆ are here, and I would like to live here forever. I want to be here︇ and I want to buy a house, maybe is not smart but I want to︈ do that. And we are not communist lol... Government is socialist right now but dont︉ worry I think we will see a new government next years.

Well some advisors talk about Switzerland,‍ I really dont know why, maybe is easy for my problem, to prove origin of⁠ my bitcoin... At least they told me that.

I never bought a house but running⁤ cost and taxes are low, I can buy a housee for 200.000 euro, or I⁣ can rent it for 600.000 euros 40/50 years. So I think buy a house is⁢ a good idea... Anyway you can not rent houses here, nobody do that, you can︀ rent apartments but is not easy to found house for rent... This is Spain, rent︁ is only popular on young people, and young people can not rent houses.

Thank you︂ again guys! 🙂

 

[Georgiabus]

Have you ever thinking on a private bank in Georgia , as SoloBank is Crypto‌ Currency friendly...

 

[jscargo]

Let's say the house you want to buy is 300k EUR....
Let's say you opt‌ for paying capital gains tax in spain at around 20% = 60k.
The other option,‍ cutting ties with Spain firstly, moving to Portugal, staying there for at least 6 months,⁠ withdrawing the money, finding the house, buying the house, returning to Spain. This would probably⁤ take a year, and at least some 30k if you want to live with dignity.⁣
If you plan to return to Spain immediately after getting the house, it is financially⁢ flawed imo or the house value has to cost at least 1 mil.

 

[Aten]

That is a good point. Moving has its own expenses. Just pay taxes for the‌ house and live with peace of mind. Maintenance of house is something everyone on planet‍ pays and its very extreme to try avoiding it.

 

[alex777]

What I know about buying property in Spain from my past experience.
You need to‌ have money in a bank account in a Spanish bank.
The Spanish bank is very‍ strict now, especially regarding transfers from outside the EU.
They freeze incoming transfer and ask⁠ for sources of money. Then you explain and show some supporting documents, then they may⁤ ask for more documents and more. It can take several weeks to satisfy the complaint⁣ department. You need to prepared to make the source of money for bank simple that⁢ possible. Becouse In my case it's look like they don't have enogh knowledge or simple︀ overload.

And according the Spanish law, resident of Spain must declare all assets including bank︁ accounts that they have outside of Spain (Modela 720).

And like in many other EU︂ countries according AML law the banks, lawyers, notary obliged to report you to autority if︃ they saw some "suspiciouse".

I wish you have that you want.
Just be careful.

 

[Spinat]

How do you open an account there, remote‍ or need an introducer and what are the requirements?

agree very much with you. However, you could simply get a⁣ invoice from someone that has companies around the globe and don't care to get you⁢ that over. Really hard for any government to proof it's not real.

@Martin Everson as someone very knowledge about banking (120 accounts say a lot) I would think Switzerland was︀ one of your 1st stop destinations for banking. What is more reliable then Swiss banks︁ if you have money in there? I'm curious?

OP are you willing to relocate in︂ order to get your crypto to fiat and live in a place where you have︃ no tax to pay?

 

[Martin Everson]

Avoid Switzerland if you have a weak source of funds. The banks do not⁤ play in 2020 in allowing clients with poor source of funds in.

That would⁢ be a good option as long as his crypto is worth less than 4m euros.︀ Otherwise he will need to pay Spanish exit tax on the unrealized gains in his︁ crypto if taxman finds he has assets in his new country which it can discover︂ if a DTA exists with new country.

 

[KJK]

Good reference:


https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7lu6ze

 

[SaintVince]

OP must be a very knowledgeable person if he bought btc in 2014 at lets‌ say $400/btc. And let’s assume that the current price is $10,000/btc so he increased the‍ investment 25 fold.

if he sells now and gets $500,000 it means that the original⁠ investment was $20,000.

i don’t think in 2014, I would have sent some guy $20,000⁤ cash to buy some crypto currency.

let us know how you cash it.

if you⁣ can at least explain where you got the original $20,000 then you can start there.⁢ Showing btc growth is easy. This way you can prove the source of funds.
you just need a printout or the transactions from your wallet I.e. 20,000 in btc credit︀ in 2014. 500,000 in btc debit in 2020.

 

[nomad999]

Are you crazy to sell btc now ? didn't you noticed the s**t show going‌ on in the global economy ? Bitcoin is going to increase massively in value within‍ the next few years.
Also, buying a house, what for ? To pay taxes forever⁠ and be a slave like everyone else in a communist country ?

Seriously right now⁤ is not a good time to sell, wait a year or two and you will⁣ have your millions, probably more given the amount of money that is going to be⁢ printed by the central banks now that s**t has hit the fan.

 

[Josevbtc]

I really enjoyed your two articles on reddit.‌ I would like the advisors I have consulted knew as many things as you! I‍ have written you a private message on Reddit, I hope you can answer me.

Lol, I know! I am not selling now! I will wait (maybe 2 years︃ or so?) for a good price, I hope to see 50k or 100k... But I︄ know is time to get some info about what to do in the future, I︅ want to be ready!.

Thank you all guys for your answers. I have read all︆ your comments, excuse me if I do not answer all ... It is difficult for︇ me to write in English, it takes a long time.

 

[Martin Everson]

Hope your right as BTC its⁠ down 21% today as I type and during corona virus outbreak and financial market turmoil⁤ ns2. Not a good time to sell in any case.

 

[dissident]

You can spend it with a good level of privacy by using debit cards connected‌ to your Bitcoin wallet. Coinbase Card is a reliable service, but they have a strong‍ KYC process that might eventually expose you in the future if they are enforced to⁠ share information with EU tax authorities, as they currently do with the IRS in US.⁤ You can find on Google "crypto debit card" and you will find different provides, but⁣ I'd suggest to conduct a full research before putting large sums there.

If you want⁢ to avoid high tax burden, you should move your tax residency to a less socialist︀ country. Andorra is the closest, but the process to move there is not cheap and︁ takes some time.

My advice, assuming you have a generous 6 figures amount equivalent in︂ BTC, you can spend that money in small amounts (1500€-3000€) on a monthly basis using︃ different debit cards providers as suggested before, even using multiple accounts is advisable under different︄ persons (family, close friends...), so you will not have a single point of failure in︅ case they suspect about your account activity or report your cash movement to local tax︆ authorities, that might eventually share record with Spanish socialist tax authorities due to AEOI/CRS bulls**t︇ regulations (however, this is unlike because they don't have to comply with bank financial regulations,︈ just electronic money license, which does not share much info).

Good luck with the crypto︉ spending 🙂

 

[void]

nice advice... but what is he supposed to spend︉ for? 6 figures by card, hmm 🙄

 

[dissident]

Why not?
Let's say using 4 different person BTC debit‍ card accounts, each spending 600€-700€ per month = 2400€-2800€ total spending per month in order⁠ to cover one person life expenses.
That during 5-10 years, about ~156,000€ - 312,000€ respectively⁤ in total spending, all without triggering alarms and with good level of privacy/anonymity/untraceability.

Not to⁣ mention the very likely BTC price increase against fiat in the upcoming years.
With a⁢ bit of luck, the guy might fund its long-term life that way with a modest,︀ low-profile, but still comfortable, life style.

 

[void]

exactly... 5-10 years :-D
it doesn't look like a solution for exit to me
if BTC price will grow then the "problem" will grow too
if BTC price will go‌ down then he lost his money because he was unable to exit the position
either way he can't buy anything serious using this money

 

[dissident]

I don't see the big deal here.
You can move funds into stable coin (USDT, USDC...)⁤ if price volatility is your major fear, which I don't believe it's the case since⁣ he waited 6 years to withdraw funds, including waiting during the crazy 2017-2018 bull run.⁢

Anyway, it's very unlikely BTC will fall to $100 or $1000. Even if all governments︀ try ban or prosecute it, which will turn the world into very totalitarian regimes and︁ I'm sure society will have bigger freedom issues than just BTC ban lol, the dark︂ market will still be alive, and while major drugs are illegal, dark money will always︃ be there, some of it using crypto to protect and move assets, and there is︄ no fucking way any gov can fully avoid this. It's logistically and financially impossible to︅ control since the technology is decentralized and anyone with electrify and hardware can run it︆ with a high degree of confidentiality.

You can also buy real state in different jurisdictions︇ with crypto. It might be a bit tricky initially and require some paperwork, but it's︈ perfectly doable and I know people who did it legally after launching a successful ERC20︉ ICO.

 

[Helkins]

I honestly don't understand you all here, you focus on the personal tax obligations instead‌ of suggesting a corporate solution. You currently have your assets in BTC which aren't connected‍ to your name, create or buy an offshore company in no reporting jurisdiction where crypto⁠ is positively or neutrality seen, move the BTC to bank account over the period of⁤ time and for the sake of bank knowledge have invoices or contracts proving crypto consultation⁣ for a BTC fee, open an EU company and loan the money to it from⁢ the offshore one, using the EU company purchase the property in Spain and you're good.︀ You should use nominees in the EU as you might have reporting obligations as a︁ Spanish citizen.

 

[Martin Everson]

You haven't obviously thought this through. Crypto, offshore company,︂ dodgy invoices, EU company with nominees and a sham corporate loan to purchase real estate.︃ What could possibly go wrong I wonder 🙄.

 

[Helkins]

Dear friend, I might've left out some⁠ details but the general concept stays the same, some adjustments could be made and updated⁤ for the current laws. I've been doing many schemes for the past 15 years and⁣ own a couple of properties in EU and we haven't had larger issues, one of⁢ which is in Marbella so it very much works/ed for Spain. I'm not telling him︀ to make everything dodgy and fake, use your wit and make it look like a︁ legitimate aged business venture from which you could perhaps even earn some money.