How to run a business without office?

[JohnnyDoe]

clemens said:
You say you have build your business around people on the Upwork platform? That means you have specific tasks like the example give above already?

You can't use people on Upwork for business stragey development for instant or to discuss parts of your business to build a strategy to grow or can you ?
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I have someone (found on Upwork) who manages the people on Upwork who are given specific tasks. I don't discuss strategies on that platform, also because conversations are not private. So I prefer secure chats. And sometimes I even meet people in real life, mostly lawyers and judges though smi(&%

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[khinkali]

I find it somewhat the opposite. I wish I had enough work (and budget) to‍ employ the folk I hired on Upwork years ago and who still keep in touch.⁠

I have one tip for Upwork. When you need a new teem member whom you⁤ will train, hire several people. Somewhere between 5 and 20. Give them some very small⁣ job to test their communication and timeliness. Use a spreadsheet to keep track. Then re-hire⁢ 2 or 3 of them and give them something bigger, so that you get to︀ know them.

Of those 20 or however many you start with, hope to find just︁ one who is great. Someone who understands you and can deliver for you. They will︂ become more and more valuable over time. It helps to pick someone fairly new and︃ cheap, so that you can give them a few unexpected pay rises in the early︄ days.

Obviously this doesn't work if you have a particular task that requires someone with︅ skills you don't have, for that you just need to hire someone expensive with a︆ great track record for the task.

 

[Forester]

True; but it need not to be a problem.⁣ It's just about the paradigm / the point of view. There is a lot of⁢ positions where you can simply forget about “working hours“. Of course, in a factory with︀ the conveyor system (or generally, in the most of production) you need the employees working︁ in working hours; but in many cases you simply need the tasks fulfilled before deadline,︂ that's all.
I perhaps understand what you mean; just wanting︅ to remark that this example IMO does not suit well. N e-mails (for any N)︆ per day can be handled very easily or very difficultly and it is practically impossible︇ to predict it, as every e-mail can be very specific, the same for phone calls.︈
Yes, I agree.
Nevertheless, particularly Microsoft Office 365 is︊ really far from being perfect, leniently said. 😉
Well, I can only say that I am working︌ with remote workers for ~10 years almost exclusively and my experience is just positive.
I agree completely.
Just to add,
1) I strongly prefer opensource communication (Jitsi, Twinkle, Jami, ...)︊ and project management (Ganttproject, tj3, OpenProject, ...) tools, especially for sharing confidential information.
2) I︋ have never used local HR Manager to outsource local talents in remote countries, as I︌ have not needed it (on all occassions, my collaborators were referenced by someone trustworthy known︍ to me) but I seems to me to be a good idea for general practice.︎
Agreeing. I am doing︃ practically the same, not at Upwork but generally. Beginning with a small task for more︄ people then I need and getting to know them, in the same time letting them︅ to know me/us. Perhaps to hire 20 seems a little bit a lot to me;︆ but I have no experience with Upwork...

 

[khinkali]

If you want to access someone's‍ existing skills then you might be able to find that one person who fits and⁠ hire them, based on their previous work and good feedback. This will cost more but⁤ is worth it.

With the "hire 20 people" approach I would hope to find several⁣ to work with long term but when hiring new freelancers without a history of good⁢ feedback, the success ratio can be very poor. "Yes Sir I can do exactly what︀ you want." = "I have no idea what your requirements are but I'll say anything︁ to get the job". The benefit of putting in the work to find that one︂ good newbie is that once you've trained them up and are paying 5x to 10x︃ their original rate, they tend to be loyal.

 

[ecool]

I run a worldwide fully remote company, currently with around 140 employees. We don't have‌ a physical office or headquarters. Everyone works from home/hotel/beach/coffeeshop/anywhere in different places in the world.‍ We hire from many different countries and we offer flexible working schedule.

I started some⁠ years ago hiring in freelancer sites. You post an offer and then discuss with the⁤ person to take it out of the platform (note that this is against the platforms⁣ TOS, so do it wisely).
Nowadays as the company is big enough we have an⁢ HR team and they hire by posting online.

Regarding controlling employees, I don't see it︀ any differently from when I used to be an employee sitting in a physical office︁ and some colleagues were all day on Facebook and wasting their time. Productivity is measured︂ with other factors than "controlling your employees screens", or "sitting behind them".

One funny thing︃ about physical office is that other companies and specially banks and official institutions will eventually︄ require or ask for it (specially when you grow and when you deal with bigger︅ clients who for some reason want to know your physical location). So we eventually rented︆ a co-working space tiny office where banks can come to see us. But the office︇ is empty 99% of the time and they never understand how our company is so︈ big and fully remote. We always have to explain the same history. Still it's hard︉ for them to understand.

There are many tools for communication and project organization, KPIs, etc.︊ I could recommend some, but to be honest, any works as long as it fits︋ your needs. I don't see why the tools have to be different if your company︌ is fully remote than local. We use many tools which I used to use in︍ the past when I was working for a local non-remote company. You have to imagine︎ the company as being local but your colleagues are siting in other continents and timezones️ instead of being next to you. Everything has to be asynchronous instead of being synchronous.‌ That's it.

 

[RealDude]

easy-peasy 😉

 

[Wellington]

Days of an office are over.︀

I had 5, now all completely remote, office is basically laptop on my chest as︁ i lay on the sofa/bed or sit at a desk.

 

[RealDude]

I feel sorry for your back and neck 😉

 

[Forester]

I agree with you at 100%.
I have questioned only the︃ number of hired people. I would perhaps try something like 8-10; but it is perfectly︄ possible that I would miss. As I have said, I have no experience with Upwork,︅ and it is a specific environment.
(BTW, your phrase “Yes Sir I can do exactly︆ what you want.” = “I have no idea what your requirements are but I'll say︇ anything to get the job.” should be cut into stone. 🙂)

 

[clemens]

Okay, I get the point and I like to read your experience and story, keep‌ posting! But how about confidential information, I mean, how are you handling information that shouldn't‍ be public or shared with others? If you don't know Felix in the Philipines in⁠ person, how can you make sure he does not sell the information he gets from⁤ you or misuse it in other ways?

Reading the posts makes me eager to get⁣ started with some online workers.

 

[ecool]

How would knowing someone in⁢ person change this?

I think if someone wants to do something harmful, they will do︀ it regardless if they know you in person or not.

I think the key is︁ to hire the right candidates, with past experience working remote and make them sign proper︂ agreements. Its true that being in different countries makes it harder to sue someone for︃ a breach of agreement but knowing someone in person or not knowing them should not︄ make any difference

 

[RealDude]

In the⁢ West, someone convicted of stealing information would never get a legitimate job again in his︀ life.

 

[Mike Forman]

We have⁢ had experience with all kinds of personalities and first two groups of staff in Philippines︀ were fully wfh due to covid restrictions and I can tell we had with 80pct︁ issues which we only discovered using productivity monitoring tools etc. Many doing other jobs, trying︂ to setup each other against the company to obtain benefits, pretending to work but instead︃ been travelling to an island (with sometimes no to poor internet) . Even from those︄ you would never expect at top levels and that were in the beginning very hard︅ working we discovered they were working half of the time for another company.

We have︆ replaced ALL 30 of them twice except one. Now we have a very good trustworthy︇ team, thanks to the culture, HR and hybrid setup.

Never ever I would go fully︈ remote again, but a hybrid setup where people have to be twice a week in︉ the office and we monthly organize some activities works great and keeps also people feel︊ connected.

Meetings in person are most of the time as well more effective than remote,︋ depending on the type of meeting.

Once you have a solid reliable team you know︌ for 90pct after hybrid or office setup they are focused it is possible to have︍ for a period of time go fully remote

Above is our experience and we have︎ gone through several teams and remote setup in Europe, China and Philippines, especially during covid️ when there was no other choice. All different cultures but finally people who work fully‌ remotely are less engaged and get less and less engaged. If you want to correct‍ them it's often already too late and they will just leave or even disappear.

Personally I prefer to go sometimes to the office where I focus much more on work⁠ then staying at home every day and after lunch sit in the sofa where the⁤ short nap becomes a whole unproductive afternoon.

So hybrid works best for us and most⁣ large Bpo companies as concentrix, Accenture shifted back most of their staff from wfh during⁢ and just after covid to work from the office again.

 

[Forester]

I agree with you.
Not necessarilly; but I am convinced that sueing someone is the last and very sub-optimal⁢ possibillity to solve this situation.
Perhaps, I would say “should not︁ make a remarkable difference“...

But I do understand @clemens 's uncertainity.
(I hope) I understand your point; and︌ I definitely do not contest your experience.
It can be perhaps closely related to your︍ business, too; could you share what business you are in?
Just generally, some questions emerge︎ in my mind (do not take it personally, please):
If someone is able to do️ another job, is the amount of tasks that are assigned to him appropriate? Isn't he‌ underloaded? Or, are the task results appropriately monitored?
And, even if he/she can work for‍ another company because he is working all the day and night or has only a⁠ part-time job from me, does it necessarilly represent a problem? Is it a work for⁤ my direct competitor? If someone gets less engaged (it can happen while working in the⁣ office, too), why his supervisor does not see and handle it immediately?
And we can⁢ go even further: What motivates my remote employees to work for another company?
Etc...

My experience is, say, 50:50.︁ Both have some pros and cons.
Yes, I understand fully. And there can be (and are)︅ dozens of another good reasons for what some people prefer to work in the office,︆ even strongly. If you have two little kids in the house who really are not︇ able to understand that you must not be disturbed while working, or if you share︈ a really small apartement with someone, if you temporarily live in a really ugly house︉ and your office is in the nice environment, if you are just in a process︊ of divorce (and your spouse is at home), if ...

Simply, there is IMO no︋ universal solution.

But for some businesses and/or some circumstances, remote working, as per my experience,︌ functions very well.

 

[Mike Forman]

I try to clarify more how we come to this opinion and experience,which is️ all based on facts and not some guessing.

We are providing services to our other‌ businesses : accounting, HR, customer service, marketing, IT, procurement,.. As well have some manufacturing in‍ China.

To know what is exactly going on with your staff you need a comprehensive⁠ monitor system that records everything, only then you can confirm for 100pct what they are⁤ doing, otherwise you are just guessing.

For most of us including myself this feels one⁣ step too far since we all want some privacy. If you also record of all⁢ their Facebook private chats and know they search on Google gay P**N, it will feel︀ too invasive, but I just ignore that as I'm not interested in their personal lives︁ (maybe some would enjoy the spy factor) .

I believe in a balanced work situation︂ in which we all have our productive and less productive days. It's not possible to︃ measure all the work that an accounting team of 10 people is doing especially not︄ if there is a huge backlog with multiple corporations at that time, meaning they had︅ sometimes valid excuses things couldn't be completed.

I personally don't give a f if someone︆ has an extra job beyond working hours or watches occasionally some youtube or P**N during︇ working hours. What we czre about is the output and depending on the job position︈ if that person is focused on work. If someone achieves sales target in 1 hour,︉ we wouldn't care this person does other things. But most of the time you don't︊ have such a situations as this means maybe the target is set too low.

When we started to monitor the staff 70pct was doing other jobs or other things for︋ half of their time (they initially did not but it became worse and worse). We︌ could also read all the fake excuses they invented for not being able to work︍ or attend a meeting at a certain time (no internet connection, feeling sick and maybe︎ covid but instead shopping in a mall,..)
The full wfh setup was the cause of️ this culture, as it is not possible that all 30 people were the wrong people,‌ we had a good recruiting and on boarding process in place. Filipino culture might play‍ a roll into this, our Chinese staff were much more focused on work and never⁠ did any other jobs.

So we had to replace all of the staff in Philippines⁤ and when you confronted them with some facts they grouped together trying to sabotage servers,⁣ go to Dole, try to damage the company, try others to do the same etc.⁢

Just as with a relationship you have to keep your eyes open, trust people but︀ never trust them blindly, especially not when you don't know that person well enough. In︁ the office you will already notice easier each time you pass by their Facebook page︂ open something is going on.

As in a relationship, you trust your partner but especially︃ in the beginning you pay attention to her behavior. If she is with you and︄ texting all the time with other guys or you notice she online all the time︅ on a dating site when you are not together and telling you that she is︆ busy to meet, you might have some questions.

In case of 100% remote work and︇ with teams larger than 15 people I would recommend to provide a company laptop, to︈ have some productivity monitor software you can activate at any time especially during the on︉ boarding phase and do some random checks. If someone in the past three days had︊ for 3 hours each other day no key pressed and no screen movement, or is︋ 4 hours chatting in Messenger a day, you might have a closer look at that︌ person.

Engagement remotely is not easy to achieve. I have seen many people working for︍ large companies attending remote meetings and most were doing other things (playing phone etc), while︎ the meeting was going on.

So to summarize, if I would ever need to go️ to full remote setup again for 15-20+ people (if no choice, since we will keep‌ it hybrid), I would always have a productivity monitor tool installed and those you have‍ some doubts about their output have a quick check and those you even trust also⁠ have a quick check every few months. Recently I never check anyone since now we⁤ have a good focused team, partially through the wonderful job of our HR keeping them⁣ engaged and feel they are all a part of a company.

 

[Forester]

Thank you for the detailed description, @Mike Forman, really appreciated.

It seems to me‌ that our attitudes are, in fact, not very different, see below. Our experiences with remote‍ workers apparently differ; I will think it over, what can be in the background. Definitely,⁠ local culture can make a lot; and I must say that I have never worked⁤ with Filipinos, neither operated a business in Philippines. But I think it's not all; I⁣ have some other ideas in my mind but I will give it some time 😉
I agree︌ with all at 100%.
Agreeing again. Can you share your experience with‍ Europeans, if any?
Worth remembering, really.
Yes, exactly 🙂
Fully understandable.
I'll get back later.

 

[uplana]

Someone has experience with
https://edu.google.com/workspace-for-education/classroom/
It's free and should work like slack ?