Form to identify if I am a reportable person for purposes of CRS

[BTCNG]

Martin, are you Serious?

So if I have given the bank 5 phone numbers, each in different country, am I, only because of that, going to be reported to 5 different jurisdicitions?

It sounds unreasonable and will cause a huge mess all around the world for people to justify their tax residency.

I have no doubt that either what you wrote is happening for people that didn't do the self-certification form or people the bank cannot trace (call/email/post) for any kind of reason or maybe to old and small balance accounts.

I believe the Indicia search is the last resort of the bank as the bank must report to someone. If you filled a self certification form with a proof of address it should be fine (otherwise, why the bank is asking you to sign in the first place?)

 

[challenge]

As long as they really actually marked it as active NFE, today was due date... I would sleep well. Also more because it was closed in 2018. 🙂
I'm pretty sure cyprus banks made a lot more bigger "mistakes" with some russians bank accounts...

Also they'll read this, as these kind of threads when you go into details get indexed on top positions by google for key words like crs + country + bank etc...

So I don't want to write about details but I am sure that on other banks, in this particular case "passive to active nfe", phone number and his address shouldn't technically matter.
As long as it's really an active NFE and hadn't issue with them in past. As long as it was never reported before as passive nfe.
I don't really know his details nor his whole structure as he didn't write anything. Nor the money amount, the past relationship with the bank, if he really have an office there?, local director etc
Actually I (or we?) don't know even where he's resident.

These kind of things are highly technical and mistakes are highly costly. That's why international tax experts costs so much.

When OECD exempted active nfes said that they're just normal businesses that aren't used for high tax evasion, that reporting every active business would overwhelm the country offices.
I think starting 1/2020 with the next atad full in place things will start to be a little tighter, with public registers everywhere and the such.
It could be very well possible that also Active NFEs and their cp will be forced to being reported by OECD soon.

 

[fshore]

challenge said:
When OECD exempted active nfes said that they're just normal businesses that aren't used for high tax evasion, that reporting every active business would overwhelm the country offices.
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Every active business is reported (unless existing low value account and where bank has decided not to report those) but only the business is reported, while for å passive nfe the controlling person is reported.

 

[Yaneek]

fshore said:
Every active business is reported (unless existing low value account and where bank has decided not to report those) but only the business is reported, while for å passive nfe the controlling person is reported.
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What is low value account and where are active businesses reported?

 

[challenge]

@fshore yes you're right I was talking by virtue of the controlling person but couldn't edit or post (@Admin getting weird errors lately when editing or posting some threads, it says to check the browser console for errors).

a message is sent to the tax authority with the name of the company, its address, account number etc, amount etc then forwarded to the relevant tax residency jurisdiction if it's partecipating. But there's no trace of ubo's names or senior manager's tin or address or phone in that message.
As long as the country don't give a damn f* about foreign managed companies everything will be alright.
Many Caribbean countries weren't even ready to crs when they signed. IIRC for example seychelles was compliant and started forwarding only from June 2018.
Have you seen some caribbean tax offices LOL

 

[Martin Everson]

BTCNG said:
Martin, are you Serious?
Click to expand...

Deadly serious.

BTCNG said:
So if I have given the bank 5 phone numbers, each in different country, am I, only because of that, going to be reported to 5 different jurisdicitions?
Click to expand...

Yes if "indicia" is enabled in the CRS software. There is nothing unusual about reporting to multiple jurisdictions.

BTCNG said:
It sounds unreasonable and will cause a huge mess all around the world for people to justify their tax residency.
Click to expand...

Thats the client issue. In most CRS countries laws are black and white when it comes to tax residency.

BTCNG said:
I have no doubt that either what you wrote is happening for people that didn't do the self-certification form or people the bank cannot trace (call/email/post) for any kind of reason or maybe to old and small balance accounts.
Click to expand...

It happened to me personally as I mentioned in another thread I believe.

BTCNG said:
I believe the Indicia search is the last resort of the bank as the bank must report to someone.
Click to expand...

CRS software is automated but maybe done manually at very small banks to save costs. There is no man sat at a keyboard checking 100,000's of accounts manually against CRS criteria.

BTCNG said:
If you filled a self certification form with a proof of address it should be fine (otherwise, why the bank is asking you to sign in the first place?)
Click to expand...

They are asking in case you have multiple tax residencies where CRS data needs to be additionally sent. Self Certification is not used instead of account holder data they already have on record...that would be too easy wouldn't it....lol

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[Martin Everson]

challenge said:
I don't really know his details nor his whole structure as he didn't write anything. Nor the money amount, the past relationship with the bank, if he really have an office there?, local director etc
Actually I (or we?) don't know even where he's resident.
Click to expand...

This info is known (PM'd) but I will never discuss here.

challenge said:
a message is sent to the tax authority with the name of the company, its address, account number etc, amount etc then forwarded to the relevant tax residency jurisdiction if it's partecipating. But there's no trace of ubo's names or senior manager's tin or address or phone in that message.
As long as the country don't give a damn f* about foreign managed companies everything will be alright.
Click to expand...

So every offshore shell company with nominee director and shareholder where the bank also knows the UBO (as required) is not exchanged with country of UBO? Is that what you think happens? Does anyone even read CRS manuals anymore.

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[challenge]

he sent me some details and situation is more complicated than it seemed from the thread. haven't seen the company articles,documents nor the resolutions nor the power of attorney.
bank will not report the ubo if there's no reason to (unless the software is really crap and would file it as a passive one). But i don't know what he wrote in the forms nor what he sent them when he opened the account (this was pre-existent exempted account for CRS not a new one). On top of it I mistakenly understood on a previous message that this was a cyprus company with cyprus bank account not a seychelles one.

Pretty confident once the thing reaches cyprus tax auth they'll not going to bother for the 2018 amount he told me.

 

[daxbr]

Admin said:
BoC asked me about the exact same thing, I refused to complete the forms and they closed the account. So far I have not heard anything from the local tax office but I'm sure I will 😀 I only had a very small amount on this account for years never used it so I can't care less about it.
Click to expand...

Only reasonable course of action.

It is already a nightmare and gets worse, more info they have with possible more serious legal consequences. Shut it all down now and rebuild on your terms.

 

[BTCNG]

Martin Everson said:
Deadly serious.



Yes if "indicia" is enabled in the CRS software. There is nothing unusual about reporting to multiple jurisdictions.



Thats the client issue. In most CRS countries laws are black and white when it comes to tax residency.



It happened to me personally as I mentioned in another thread I believe.



CRS software is automated but maybe done manually at very small banks to save costs. There is no man sat at a keyboard checking 100,000's of accounts manually against CRS criteria.



They are asking in case you have multiple tax residencies where CRS data needs to be additionally sent. Self Certification is not used instead of account holder data they already have on record...that would be too easy wouldn't it....lol
Click to expand...

So, Basically, if I get you, what you claim is that even if you signed a self-certification form and you have also provided your proof of address (like a utility bill on your name), and you have even a small indication of another country as well (like a merely phone number in another country) you will be reported to all these jurisdictions (meaning - the procedure of the indicia that bank will perform will make you reportable to a tax jurisdiction even if you only just have a phone number registered in the bank of a different country) - am I right?


What is the use of the self-certification form? What is its purpose???

 

[Martin Everson]

BTCNG said:
So, Basically, if I get you, what you claim is that even if you signed a self-certification form and you have also provided your proof of address (like a utility bill on your name), and you have even a small indication of another country as well (like a merely phone number in another country) you will be reported to all these jurisdictions (meaning - the procedure of the indicia that bank will perform will make you reportable to a tax jurisdiction even if you only just have a phone number registered in the bank of a different country) - am I right?
Click to expand...

Yes

BTCNG said:
What is the use of the self-certification form? What is its purpose???
Click to expand...

See below link:

Client has multiple addresses
See Point 6 - In case of change in client circumstances
See Point 7 - Establish tax residency for new accounts
etc etc etc

https://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/common-reporting-standard/CRS-related-FAQs.pdf
Basically there are many uses of Self Certification. However it is NOT used as I mentioned already "instead" of account holder data. Where the bank knows you live i.e in Germany but you enter nonsense about living in Dubai and nonsense about company type on Self Certification they will report you to Germany etc like I said below.

Martin Everson said:
They are asking in case you have multiple tax residencies where CRS data needs to be additionally sent. Self Certification is not used instead of account holder data they already have on record...that would be too easy wouldn't it....lol
Click to expand...

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[Martin Everson]

Martin Everson said:
Client has multiple addresses
See Point 6 - In case of change in client circumstances
See Point 7 - Establish tax residency for new accounts
etc etc etc
Click to expand...

Ignore the above numbering error....sorry to to clarify....

Page 4 point 3 - Client has multiple address
Page 5 point 6 - In case of change in client circumstances
Page 5 point 7 - Establish tax residency for new accounts
etc etc.

Read the full faq in fact or manual whichever is easier thu&¤#

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[BTCNG]

Martin Everson said:
This info is known (PM'd) but I will never discuss here.



So every offshore shell company with nominee director and shareholder where the bank also knows the UBO (as required) is not exchanged with country of UBO? Is that what you think happens? Does anyone even read CRS manuals anymore.
Click to expand...

The banks dont even ask the UBO to fill its tax information (TIN etc) if it is an active NFE.
Active NFE = none information exchanged on the UBO, rega

 

[BTCNG]

Read the FAQ (I was familiar with other points, but now I went through the points you mentioned one by one).

Page 4 point 3 - Client has multiple address


“a bank could have two addresses meeting the requirements in a case where a resident of Country B is working and living half her time in Country B and Country C”


Having another phone number does not has any relation to the above. The above talks about someone the bank already knows that the person is sharing tax resident in 2 countries.



Page 5 point 6 - In case of change in client circumstances

“if the additional information obtained is inconsistent with the claims made by a person in a self-certification, there has been a change in circumstances, and a Financial Institution will have a reason to know that a self-certification is unreliable or incorrect.”


Another phone number cannot reach to the extent that the person is tax resident in this country. Also, this makes the process MANUAL and definitely NOT automatic that the indicia search will automatically make the banks software to report on a wrong jurisdiction.



Page 5 point 7 - Establish tax residency for new accounts

“for New Accounts the Financial Institution may rely on a self-certification made by the customer unless it knows or has reason to know that the self-certification is incorrect or unreliable, (the “reasonableness” test), which will be based on the information obtained in connection with the opening of the account, including any documentation obtained pursuant to AML/KYC procedures”


Same as mentioned before, I don't believe that another phone number is a reason to believe that the self certification is wrong. Also, this will make the process manual and not automatic.

Anyway, how do you have the time to deal with CRS, now that you are sooooo busted??? :
'Credible evidence' Saudi crown prince responsible for Khashoggi murder - UN expert

(-:

 

[Martin Everson]

BTCNG said:
Same as mentioned before, I don't believe that another phone number is a reason to believe that the self certification is wrong. Also, this will make the process manual and not automatic.
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"indicia" is built into much of CRS automated reporting software as it has been in FATCA software for a while now. Google different CRS software packages i.e the below. They all scoop up data to identify possible client connections to different countries. Not going to mention the CRS software company I am affiliated too for privacy reasons.

https://www.kogerusa.com/fatca-crs-compliance

BTCNG said:
Anyway, how do you have the time to deal with CRS, now that you are sooooo busted??? :
'Credible evidence' Saudi crown prince responsible for Khashoggi murder - UN expert
Click to expand...

In my Kingdom women don't write reports. That woman say very bad things about my Kingdom and me in that report - but why??? We loved brother Jamal to bits....literally.

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[Martin Everson]

BTCNG said:
The banks dont even ask the UBO to fill its tax information (TIN etc) if it is an active NFE.
Active NFE = none information exchanged on the UBO, rega
Click to expand...

Absence of TIN is not deal stopper for being reported. Bank will send as is.

BTCNG said:
Having another phone number does not has any relation to the above. The above talks about someone the bank already knows that the person is sharing tax resident in 2 countries.
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Who said it does have relevance to that specific point...lol. But yes having a foreign phone number comes under indicia and will get you reported to the CRS country of the phone number. It's basic common sense and basic due diligence by the bank - trust me. But as people don't want to trust me just see below document or just check more on google for "CRS indicia".

See page 6 - telephone number (indicia)
https://www.ey.com/Publication/vwLU...ient-alert-OECD-Common-Reporting-Standard.pdf
See first page - telephone number (indicia)
https://www.bradescoeuropa.eu/BradescoEuropa/static_files/pdf/What_is_CRS_January_2016.pdf

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[BTCNG]

Martin Everson said:
Absence of TIN is not deal stopper for being reported. Bank will send as is.



Who said it does have relevance to that specific point...lol. But yes having a foreign phone number comes under indicia and will get you reported to the CRS country of the phone number. It's basic common sense and basic due diligence by the bank - trust me. But as people don't want to trust me just see below document or just check more on google for "CRS indicia".

See page 6 - telephone number (indicia)
https://www.ey.com/Publication/vwLU...ient-alert-OECD-Common-Reporting-Standard.pdf
See first page - telephone number (indicia)
https://www.bradescoeuropa.eu/BradescoEuropa/static_files/pdf/What_is_CRS_January_2016.pdf
Click to expand...

Good explanation MBS,
I feel that the my posts have been cut into peaces (same as Khakuji, without the "my posts" part....)