Cashing out bitcoins

[Dev Nul]

Hi,

So I invested a few btc in a coin about an year ago that went up a lot. So I got a lot of bitcoins to dump now.

The records of the whole scenario are available. Nothing shady involved

I'm not in US/EU. Let me know if you want me to PM you my home country. The crypto procedures are slow, and possibly full of red tape so I'm just exploring the option of selling in a tax haven.

I want to sell the coins in a place with very low / no tax.

I want to be assured that aeoi/crs won't create problems.

In future:
I want to be able to possibly start a business (a SAAS) from there.

I want a plan to be able to repatriate profits / transfer funds into home country, or into another country in EU/Aus/NZ in case I decide to move.

Point me to any services that will help me please.

Thanks for your assistance 🙂

 

[Martin Everson]

I assume you are in a CRS country as you are concerned about it ns2

Just buy any stable liquid asset directly with bitcoin that can be cashed out in days 😀

Toggle signature
Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[Dev Nul]

Martin Everson said:
I assume you are in a CRS country as you are concerned about it ns2

Just buy any stable liquid asset directly with bitcoin that can be cashed out in days 😀
Click to expand...

I'm unable to pm you for some reason. Can you pm me please?

 

[Martin Everson]

Ok

Toggle signature
Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[Adam14]

Try to find a buyer on localbitcoins.

 

[John Spectre]

Martin Everson said:
Just buy any stable liquid asset directly with bitcoin that can be cashed out in days 😀
Click to expand...

What is the example of such asset?

 

[The Hun]

A German court dictated recently that (apart from the tax exemption on crypto profits after 1 year of holding them) purchases made directly with BTC are also non-taxable if they are worth more than what you paid for them originally.

 

[Dev Nul]

How would you explain the source of income to the bank in case they ask for the source of money flowing in?

The source is bitcoin, but it is not easily explainable as income is from trading which is unorganized, and also some mining.

If your bank doesn't ask for source of money, then in future if you move bank funds to an account in another country, would that bank ask for source of income?

Whether they ask you or not, does it depend upon how much funds are flowing in?

What are some good services and tips to help with paperwork and bank request compliance and responding in case the bank asks for details which can't be easily explained?

 

[negon]

Dev Nul said:
If your bank doesn't ask for source of money, then in future if you move bank funds to an account in another country, would that bank ask for source of income?
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They will ask for it and you will have troubles if you can't provide any information to them it seems.

 

[Dev Nul]

auric said:
They will ask for it and you will have troubles if you can't provide any information to them it seems.
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How hard is it to answer such queries by a bank? How further deep are they willing to go to get their information considering that I would be a resident of a zero tax country

 

[John Spectre]

Dev Nul said:
How hard is it to answer such queries by a bank? How further deep are they willing to go to get their information considering that I would be a resident of a zero tax country
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Problem is not on side of the client.
Problem on side of bank. Because they could setup any rules and ask questions, even they are stupid ones.
Also they could reject your information about source of funds just because they can and they just don't want to learn your details about crypto.

So, even if your crypto income is 100% legal and correct, talking with bank about it could be problematic.
Generally, you need to go to banks that is crypto friendly from the beginning (like a fidor bank, bank frick, etc). And their compliance team instead of asking stupid questions just check your real blockchain/trading history.
Another way is to hide crypto nature of the money by some generic and legal way for banks sight. For example you need the company that could receive crypto and send money to you with some employment contract, service invoices, etc.

 

[Dev Nul]

I do have good ideas on how I can complete the paperwork for the trail of trading transactions leading to the BTC that needs to be cashed. Anyone can advise how to find a reputable tax accounting firm (for help with answering bank's queries about source of funds) that also does offshore registration and helps with acquiring residence visas for RAK or paid residency program for one of the popular Caribbean countries?

I'm confused between the following options:
1. RAK 3 year residence permit + HK/Singapore bank account. There's only a 1 day per 180days requirement to live there, so the rest of the time can be spent elsewhere.
2. The St Kitts paid residence program with 7 years investment locking. This would be excellent, but is on the expensive side oO From there on, the things would be easy and the only problem would be creating paperwork for explaining source of income to the bank.
3. Student/work permit for a country with low tax. Then go there and sell it all. No clue about this one, what do you suggest? How hard it would be to get a Netherlands residence permit? The tax seems pretty reasonable

I would love to get someone intelligent who wouldn't mind answering my questions. Is there a discord group or telegram channel for this topic?

I just need to find a nice, reputable, fast responding and intelligent professional that can handhold me through the steps and answer all of my queries. You know what I mean? I am flexible as this is not my forte. Please advise me the way forward

 

[KJK]

I can say straight out that #3 and student permit will not solve anything (studying/health stays/spa treatments etc. do not count as real residence).
Work permit could but then you have to actually work there.

For #1 and #2 the problem is that residence permit is a different thing than tax domicile.
And I already asked about this in a different topic in the Mentor section as well. Check it out.

Also I'm not sure why you want to bank in Hong Kong or Singapore. Did you see that in some James Bond movie?
These are not really destinations interested in guys like you. How do you imagine that?

You are let's say from Russia with residence permit on a Carribean island and you walk into HSBC and tell them you want to open an account in Hong Kong to which you have no ties whatsoever to cash out some crypto. What do you think they will say? GTFO.

You can create a Telegram group and I'll gladly join.

 

[Dev Nul]

I can say straight out that #3 and student permit will not solve anything (studying/health stays/spa treatments etc. do not count as real residence).
Work permit could but then you have to actually work there.
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I don't have a problem with working.

For #1 and #2 the problem is that residence permit is a different thing than tax domicile.
And I already asked about this in a different topic in the Mentor section as well. Check it out.
Click to expand...

If lets say I have the resident visa in Dubai(3years residency) or St Kitts (permanent), my bank would think the company is run out of there as I have maintain a virtual office and nominee director. From that point onwards, I would only stay under 183 days in any one country until I decide to move where I am moving permanently in that case I would take the funds from Dubai/St Kitts into that place (assume it is somewhere EU) without paying tax on it and pay tax only on the future income. Does this sound right?

Also I'm not sure why you want to bank in Hong Kong or Singapore. Did you see that in some James Bond movie?
These are not really destinations interested in guys like you. How do you imagine that?

You are let's say from Russia with residence permit on a Carribean island and you walk into HSBC and tell them you want to open an account in Hong Kong to which you have no ties whatsoever to cash out some crypto. What do you think they will say? GTFO.
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lol
Hong Kong is known for good banking and paypal/merchant accounts don't mind it. That's why. Same for Singapore.

What do you suggest, how could one cash out bitcoins without hassle and in a highly tax efficient way?

You can create a Telegram group and I'll gladly join.
Click to expand...

If anyone has a group I will join it. Let me know🙂

 

[John Spectre]

Dev Nul said:
I don't have a problem with working.

Hong Kong is known for good banking and paypal/merchant accounts don't mind it. That's why. Same for Singapore.
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He don't said that HK and SG is bad. He said that you as a client is not their target of interest. And if you want to interest them to you, you need to do something valued for them, not just go and order bank account for crypto money.

Just few things:
non resident - high risk. tick.
client residency in low tax country that is difference from citizenship - high risk. tick.
work with crypto - high risk. tick.
so, too much risks without getting valuable profit from business with you...

 

[KJK]

Dev Nul said:
What do you suggest, how could one cash out bitcoins without hassle and in a highly tax efficient way?
Click to expand...

I do not suggest anything, I'm in a situation similar to yours. And all I'm saying is that is it not as easy as you think.

Dev Nul said:
If lets say I have the resident visa in Dubai(3years residency) or St Kitts (permanent), my bank would think the company is run out of there as I have maintain a virtual office and nominee director. From that point onwards, I would only stay under 183 days in any one country until I decide to move where I am moving permanently in that case I would take the funds from Dubai/St Kitts into that place (assume it is somewhere EU) without paying tax on it and pay tax only on the future income. Does this sound right?
Click to expand...

No bank will believe you you actually live and operate a company from St. Kitts. And in Dubai you cannot have virtual office, it must be at least shared but it is better if it's a real office. Also nominee directors are not allowed. And you'll have to prove both personal residency and company residency.

If you decide not to stay anywhere, some countries (e.g. Finland, Netherlands...) have rules saying that if you return back after some amount of years (can be up to 10 years) of being non-resident, you will be considered resident for these missing years unless you can prove you stayed over 183 in another (one) country.

Opening accounts for crypto-related transactions, even if it is just cashout, is also more difficult than you may think - whether in Hong Kong, Singapore or Dubai. Especially if you have no ties and connections there. Did you actually try to get a bank account for a small company in Hong Kong? Because if you did, you would not be loling.

 

[Dev Nul]

I do not suggest anything, I'm in a situation similar to yours. And all I'm saying is that is it not as easy as you think.
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Ok, I get it.

No bank will believe you you actually live and operate a company from St. Kitts.
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This is very concerning. Can anyone else confirm this too? I have been told the opposite earlier.

If I'm a legit citizen of St Kitts, why wouldn't a bank believe me? I don't need to have a company in St Kitts necessarily, my company could be elsewhere but St Kitts is just what I would get reported to by the bank. And I don't have to worry about getting reported to St Kitts as they would do nothing.

And in Dubai you cannot have virtual office, it must be at least shared but it is better if it's a real office. Also nominee directors are not allowed. And you'll have to prove both personal residency and company residency.
Click to expand...

From what I read, Dubai only requires 1 day of stay in 180days in order to be a resident. Once I have my local bank account and I stay long enough in an year to satisfy residence requirements while maintaining an office, how could they complain?

If you decide not to stay anywhere, some countries (e.g. Finland, Netherlands...) have rules saying that if you return back after some amount of years (can be up to 10 years) of being non-resident, you will be considered resident for these missing years unless you can prove you stayed over 183 in another (one) country.
Click to expand...

In the medium term, I would prefer moving to an english speaking country in EU

Opening accounts for crypto-related transactions, even if it is just cashout, is also more difficult than you may think - whether in Hong Kong, Singapore or Dubai. Especially if you have no ties and connections there. Did you actually try to get a bank account for a small company in Hong Kong? Because if you did, you would not be loling.
Click to expand...

I have a digital business different from crypto for which I could open the bank account, but then the crypto profits would also flow in. Sounds doable?

 

[KJK]

Dev Nul said:
From what I read, Dubai only requires 1 day of stay in 180days in order to be a resident. Once I have my local bank account and I stay long enough in an year to satisfy residence requirements while maintaining an office, how could they complain?
Click to expand...

Yes, at least 24-hour stay every 6 months to keep your residence permit, not to be considered tax domiciled anyways.

And then it is important to find a bank that balances the compliance requirements and the services they offer.
You will find banks with not many requirements but also bad services and blocking transactions. And you will find banks with a lot of requirements but then offering good online banking and not asking much. Actually finding a bank is the problem, not getting a residence permit or keeping the account. Also you didn't state your nationality yet - some of the things you suggest may not be possible for you depending on your nationality.

Just for inspiration these are requirements of one very compliant bank to open an account:

DED Licence required documents.
1. Trade licence, Registration certificate & Partners page
2. Chamber of commerce
3. MOA/AOA
4. All owners passport copy, visa and Emirates ID.
5. CV of all the owners.
6. 3 Months bank statement of the owner or company. .(sources of funds)
7. Physical office proof.
Below documents required for non-compliance case.
(1) Complete EI account opening form signed by the authorised signatories.(Signature on signature card should be in black pen only)
(2) Copy of Valid passport originals & residence visa for all directors/Partners and the signatory/ies
(3) Copy of Valid Emirates ID copy sighted and obtained for sole proprietor/partners(if is authorized signatory)
(4) Commercial Certificate and/or Certificate of Incorporation issued from Free Zone Authority(In case of under formation entity)
(5) Copy of Share Certificate
(6) Letter from the Free Zone Authority to open an account (In case of under formation entity)
(6) Certified Copy of the Memorandum/Article of Association(only applicable for FZC)
(7) Board Resolution of the company to open and operate the account(if applicable)
(8) Physical office proof is required
Below documents required for compliance case.

(1) Complete EI account opening form signed by the authorised signatories.(Signature on signature card should be in black pen only)
(2) Copy of Valid passport originals & residence visa for all directors/Partners and the signatory/ies
(3) Copy of Valid Emirates ID copy sighted and obtained for sole proprietor/partners(if is authorized signatory)
(4) Commercial Certificate and/or Certificate of Incorporation issued from Free Zone Authority(In case of under formation entity)
(5) Copy of Share Certificate
(6) Letter from the Free Zone Authority to open an account (In case of under formation entity)
(6) Certified Copy of the Memorandum/Article of Association(only applicable for FZC)
(7) Board Resolution of the company to open and operate the account(if applicable)
(8) Bank statement of all signatory/ies if company is new otherwise provide company bank statement. .(sources of funds)
(9) KYC and residential proof of sole proprietor/partners/ signatory/ies.(personal resume and tenancy contract/utility bill)
(10) Physical office proof is required
(11) ownership proof required if owner has other businesses inside/outside & business statement.
(12) Residence proof like utility bills.

1. UAE Offshore company:
(1) Complete EI account opening form signed by the authorised signatories.(Signature on signature card should be in black pen only)
(2) Copy of Valid passport originals & residence visa for all directors/Partners and the signatory/ies
(3) Copy of Valid Emirates ID copy sighted and obtained for sole proprietor/partners(if is authorized signatory)
(4) Certificate of Incorporation issued from Authority
(5) Copy of Share Certificate(if applicable)
(6) Letter from the Authority to open an account ((if applicable)
(7) Certificate of Good Standing
(7) Certified Copy of the Article of Association
(8) Board Resolution of the company to open and operate the account(if applicable)
(9) Bank statement of all signatory/ies if company is new otherwise provide company bank statement.(sources of funds)
(10) KYC and residential proof of sole proprietor/partners/ signatory/ies.(personal resume and tenancy contract/utility bill)
(11) Physical office proof is required.
(12) ownership proof required if owner has other businesses inside/outside & business statement.
(13) Residence proof like utility bills.
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And the bank may ask you to provide some of this on a yearly basis.

 

[Dev Nul]

Could this be a great solution: Step1) Get St Kitts citizenship ($200k locked for 7 years) and Step2) then base out of RAK (actually live there over 183 days a year) and Step3) get the bank account with a crypto friendly bank somewhere?

I understand the Step 1) may be overkill

 

[troubled soul]

Martin Everson said:
I assume you are in a CRS country as you are concerned about it ns2

Just buy any stable liquid asset directly with bitcoin that can be cashed out in days 😀
Click to expand...

Can you name them ?
Please