Bitcoin up above 22.000 $US right now!!!

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thx for the correction, very interesting. only read a few︆ articles on this and obviously was crap.

ultimately bitcoin is dependant on the internet so︇ if internet is heavily controlled ultimately it would be possible to greatly impair its usage︈ ...
 
The M2 supply chart is very relevant in my opinion. If anyone︀ cares about official inflation defined by CPI, that makes very little sense. If you are︁ not really in the very low income bracket with most of your income going towards︂ food+accomodation, then your REAL inflation was more like 10 % per year and in 2020︃ it even increased to 15-25 % per year. Equities going up, rare assets and collectibles︄ going up, select services (such as education, lawyers, house work...) going up. Sure, your new︅ iPhone will have more RAM, a faster processor and it will be cheaper. However, does︆ that really justify the rest to make official CPI to be 2 %? I think︇ not.

And this is if you live in e.g. the United States. If you live︈ in Turkey or Argentina, NOT ONLY the assets went up but EVEN THE CPI (food,︉ services, utilities) went up by 50%+ per year.

I seriously doubt Venezuela would allow anyone︊ to pay taxes in a commodity / foreign currency or Bitcoin. However, the process is︋ always the same - local currency loses value until noone wants to hold it and︌ the citizens use something else instead - in Zimbabwe they use the US dollar now.︍ USD has the big advantage of being the reserve currency (Chinese hold large amounts of︎ US debt and treasuries) as well as being the energy currency (Saudis agreed to trade️ oil for dollars so that there will always be demand for dollars).

If that changes‌ and US dollar becomes weaker and weaker and loses its worldwide power, that is probably‍ good news for Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies.

Yes, absolutely. Even if you were︅ the biggest idiot in the world and bought at the top in Dec 2017, today︆ you are in the green. No large-scale asset compares to this. You can find small︇ stocks that will become 10-baggers or even 100-baggers but Bitcoin is a worldwide phenomenon that︈ does this again and again - in these four year fractals.

It is funny that now even institutions can get involved and what is⁢ most interesting they can get involved without risk and profit from Bitcoin. The easiest way︀ for the is probably to buy the Grayscale trust (GBTC) immediately when issued, hedge against︁ price drop with futures, hodl for 6 months, sell it and collect the premium. Rince︂ and repeat and the institutions can basically get a risk-free 20-30 % p.a. profit if︃ they know how to do it. Compare that with stupid US treasuries yielding sub 1%.︄

I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions of people who think Bitcoin is︎ hyped by speculation and is a bubble. There really are people who have no need️ to sell it. If you are a HNWI and you're able to save 99% of‌ your earnings, if you put some amount of it into crypto/Bitcoin, you have no need‍ to sell after a year - given its historical track record. The more rich people⁠ come to the conclusion they don't want bonds or gold, the more people will be⁤ involved in Bitcoin.

There are︂ many technology risks, probably the biggest are 51% attack, quantum computing and transaction censorship. If︃ you consider BTC's game theory, noone really wants to do a 51% attack even if︄ they were able to do it (look at BCH...). Quantum computing is usually mentioned by︅ people who do not understand cryptography but yes, it may force the network to upgrade︆ to something better and theoretically almost all addresses (including Satoshi's coins) are threatened. Transaction censhorship︇ could happen e.g. in mining pools and in exchanges - what can happen is that︈ a bifurcation of Bitcoin will evolve and there will be "nice" and "clean" Bitcoins custodied︉ by someone like Paypal or Revolut and "dirty" self-custody Bitcoin held by regular people.

You can go back to history of countries who tried to control their own currency -︊ usually in the former Soviet block. There was the local currency, only legal tender and︋ exchange to anything else was blocked or heavily regulated. Yet still there were people who︌ somehow managed to get dollars or German marks or Swiss francs or whatever into the︍ country and they were offering it at the real street rate. It was possible to︎ avoid state controls even with fiat money, with crypto the easiness of that is 10x️ better.

Colombia and Argentina indexes, correct? You say "noone in these countries profited" and that is︆ not true. Let's say I live there and I have two options - keep money︇ in the local cash or buy the local index. I will always do the second︈ option, inflation will go up - but the companies' market cap will also go up︉ accordingly and usually more. So then it is up to the companies' forex position (are︊ they long or short foreign currency in their costs? Are they exporting a lot?).

Take these indexes, use their USD-values and compare it to indexes in some "low inflation" countries︋ such as Japan or Switzerland. You will be surprised that in USD terms these emerging︌ indexes didn't do as badly as you may think. Especially if they are export and︍ commodity countries.

The second part of your text - USD collapses and hyperinflation follows and︎ BTC is not a legal medium of exchange. What will happen to my Bitcoins? Absolutely️ nothing, I will not be willing to sell my Bitcoin for worthless fiat, same as‌ gold, I will not be willing to sell my gold bar for dollars. You miss‍ the point that many people DO NOT NEED TO CASH OUT out of Bitcoin. It⁠ is like a self-reinforcing mechanism combined with Lindy effect. Something better than a central bank⁤ controlled currency was created. I do not need to go back to fiat currency, I⁣ will use only the absolute minimum of USD possible and I will definitely NOT be⁢ holding wheelbarrows of paper money. People already taught this lesson in communist countries back in︀ 1950s.
 
Venezuela and Argentina, actually. The rest of your text is︀ not applicable as you'll earn whatever profits in the local currency (FX position where?) where︁ the market is traded. Like the Germans in 1922 -and especially- 1923 where they made︂ a billion marks per HALF-DAY, only to cover a loaf of bread at most. I︃ suggest you do a bit more of research, think of a reasonable figure (in local︄ currency) for a middle-class person in any of those 2 countries, invest it, then calculate︅ the end NET profit (after taxes) - I'll even let you do monthly compound if︆ you want-, and come to me and tell me what they MIGHT actually afford with︇ all the earned money. I have already done that, so I'll wait for your answer︈ to engage in a deeper conversation. I'm an FX trader, kind of obsessed with figures,︉ so that's what I do...and when I post anything regarding currencies, I've already done my︊ maths.
Like I said, not applicable. Think︎ of the average Joe in those countries trying to make a dime out of the️ stock market, don't draw useless comparisons with countries where basic salary is $4.5k/month and has‌ a 15% stronger currency than the USD (Switzerland).
Then I take︄ it you live out of air, congratulations. In the real world, investments are part of︅ a family's cash flow...in the surreal world, investments can be held for 100+ years without︆ ever cashing out...I don't engage in stupid conversation, I did already say that. I suggest︇ a read of 'When Money dies' to understand how stock market's 10000000% return in a︈ year didn't help the average German get past two apples, a loaf of bread and︉ one potato per day...
 
And finally, the M2 chart will become relevant whenever 'they' want it to become relevant.‌ Not a conspiracy theory, but a fact. We're hopeless in a world where big money‍ has pervaded every industry and controls the way we live. If you seriously think M2⁠ is of any relevance, please explain why Japan is still holding the second/third strongest currency⁤ in the world, and still much considered a safe-haven asset when things go berserk. I've⁣ had this debate with economists worldwide and I have yet to find one simple explanation⁢ that, in Da Vinci's terms, shows that one knows what he's talking about. Always happy︀ to learn, though. Oh, and while we're at it, let's talk about the offshore Eurodollar︁ market, then we'll have a clearer picture of things...

Anyway, you won't get me into︂ a fundamental/economic discussion with BTC (macro HFs have already tried that and have failed), but︃ I'll support and congratulate the passionate advocates that will make a killing if their INVESTMENT︄ goes to the moon. If you take it out of the investment thesis and into︅ a macro theme, then I'm out of the chat ;-)
 
Simply a bizarre thing to say...lol. But people have to‍ learn the hard way like I said.
 
Stop being so aggresive and read︌ what I wrote. A person living in Argentina is much better off investing in a︍ local stock index / local company than holding cash.

It was exactly the same story︎ in Weimar Germany before the Nazis came. If you were a middle class German and️ realized hyperinflation is all around you, you could still put your money in the stock‌ market: Here's What Happened To Stocks During The German Hyperinflation bottom line is that the‍ stocks made a nice profit BOTH in local currency and in US dollars. As a⁠ regular German couldn't invest so easily abroad, this was a pretty good option, better than⁤ what you suggest.

More recent example can be Argentina and for example a relatively large⁣ company called MercadoLibre. In the period between 2013 and 2020:

MELI price rose from 14 ARS to 4088︂ ARS, gain of 29100 %
ARS inflation was in the 20-50 % p.a. range
ARS monetary supply rose from 520K to 4.4M in millions (so from 520 billion to 4.4︃ trillion), an increase of 8 times
USD/ARS rate rose from 2.9 to 84.08, an increase︄ of 29 times (i.e. 2900 %).

It is pretty obvious that if you were Argentinian︅ and you invested in a local stock, you are now at least 10 times better︆ off.

I don't know what I can buy today in Argentina︈ for 4088 ARS but I'm pretty sure I can buy more with 4088 ARS than︉ with 408 ARS.
 
There was a smiley there 😉

Look you‍ keep dismissing bitcoin against plenty of valid arguments and strong fundamentals without providing anything othet⁠ than your beliefs that it is crap and will fail.
in a few years when⁤ bitcoin recovers again and for the fourth time from a crazy bear market and still⁣ outperform most of everything averaged yoy, maybe you will consider it differently.

I am only⁢ interested of hearing valid arguments or scenario against it really, so far its an ocean︀ of emptiness except for a few ponds of fishes...
 
The cost for a 51% attack is way too︂ great and this would only disrupt the network for several days, nothing else.

quantum computing︃ is far from a reality for now, if it happens bitcoin would not be the︄ primary target for whoever has access to that tech, the whole internet rely on cryptography,︅ anything connected to the internet is then vulnerable.

regulations are the only real treat but︆ it would only slow it down and there is an army of very wealthy and︇ smart people to fight the law in the US alone, its not going to be︈ that easy, a lot is at stake for many people now.

a good recent video︉ where Andreas Antonopoulos go in great details on all the biggest treat bitcoin could face,︊ very interesting. at the end there is not much to worry about quite frankly...
 
You asked for some "fundamental" reasons against BTC, here are a few:

Bitcoin is not‌ a currency, because nobody wants to use it to buy stuff. People just hoard it‍ anticipating that it will keep going up.

Few years ago I was in a BTC⁠ fans meetup where the organizers had a bar that was selling beers for BTC. Nobody⁤ wanted to buy as they were afraid BTC will go up and they will end⁣ up paying 500 EUR for a beer. What good is a currency if nobody wants⁢ to use it? 😀 Can you imagine someone saying "I won't buy a beer with 5︀ EUR as tomorrow this EUR banknote will be worth more?" It's a joke...

Bitcoin is︁ not digital gold. It has too high a volatility to be a good store of︂ value. Gold has 5000 years of history as being used as currency. BTC has 12.︃
Gold is inversely correlated to the stock market, making it a great way to "insure"︄ against market crashes. BTC is directly correlated to the stock market, so it crashes when︅ the stock markets crash- useless for asset allocation.

Bitcoin CAN'T be used by banks. Bank︆ wires\transactions sometimes need to be reversed. BTC transactions can't be reversed, making them useless for︇ banks. Bitcoin is also completely transparent... who will want a bank account that everybody can︈ see online? Would you want everybody to see any transaction you ever did? Didn't think︉ so. If you think Central banks will give nerds the ability to print money you︊ are out of your mind... it will become regulated with strict KYC, therefore losing its︋ appeal. If you have to do KYC, BTC has no value as you can pay︌ and move money just as fast with thousands of other services.

===

Bitcoin is a︍ giant casino. The more people gamble in the casino, the higher the price goes, inviting︎ other people to speculate... in other words it's a ponzi scam as BTC generates no️ income, has no fundamentals and has no intrinsic value. It has great value if you‌ want to escape capital controls, but that's about it.

Recently there is institutional awareness that‍ led to renewed interest in the casino... so all the sore gamblers that got absolutely⁠ raped in 2018 can go back to their fanatic old ways and preach to us⁤ how BTC will change the world.

To the BTC bulls, I have a few questions:⁣ at what price will you sell your BTC? And would you buy it now? Or⁢ is it "too expensive" now...

From my personal experience a huge amount of BTC bulls︀ are simply people that got lucky and bought it for 3k or less, but would︁ never buy any BTC at the current prices. Please share the information so we can︂ find out at what phase of the pump-and-dump you joined..
 
I just stumble into this, I thought it was funny rof/%

I bought more BTC and‌ a shitton of eth above 15k at the top in november, like the moron I‍ am I have been waiting for a dip for months before that ... believe it⁠ or not I am now thinking of selling all my other crypto for bitcoin at⁤ the high above 30k, this bitcoin run is just getting started, mark my words !!⁣

a currency that cost around 5$ per transaction, wake up everyone has move past the⁢ idea of bitcoin being an actual currency, it will become a currency with layer 2︀ tech and we are a few years away from that still.

did you read what I posted above ? year on year︃ on average bitcoin is up well over 100% over a 3 to 5 year period,︄ this is an absolute store of value, wake up.

did you use gold as︆ a currency recently ?

gold crashed like everything else in march ...

smart contract are coming, if its not︋ bitcoin it will be ethereum or another one. most likely bitcoin layer2. you don't understand︌ how early we are with bitcoin today, so much more is to come with this︍ tech ...

try to move money️ on a saturday evening, you can do that with bitcoin, even bilions $ worth of‌ bitcoin if you can.

decentralized, borderless,⁠ peer to peer, censorship resistant, trustless. if you think those fundamentals are a joke, you⁤ should think twice.
nobody is asking for permission here 😉

we will see 500k bitcoin during⁣ this bullrun, likely to last over 2 years this time. and yes with a few⁢ crazy fud "bitcoin is going to zero" event, its going to be a bumpy road︀ so tighten up your seatbelt guys smi(&%
 
TSLA went up 700% this year alone.⁠ And much more over 3 to 5 year period. is it also a store of⁤ value? 😀 How about Enron stock or Tulips? They also rose a lot before crashing to⁣ their real value 😀

You can if you want to.

WRONG. By March 25 Gold recovered and went on to rise significantly, and︀ historically it's a great protection against inflation and against market crashes. You are clueless about︁ the facts and it shows.

Yeah I'm hearing about this for years. "It's coming it's coming" Very solid︄ fundamentals you got there 😀
If not BTC then ethereum, then why not buying ETH? Or︅ why not any other of the 1000+ other shitcoins out there? Maybe one of them︆ will make the breakthrough ...LOL

Have you heard of PayPal? Or Skrill? Or 1000+ other EMIs? You could move︉ money very easily also on Saturday evening.

Sure, and all the other shitcoin forks offer the same thing as well.
How is︌ this "fundamental" when I can fork BTC tomorrow and call it "MaximCoin" and have all︍ the same "fundamentals" as your beloved BTC?

You are a cult member, and I wish︎ you all the best but your arguments are very weak.

P.S. I'm still waiting for️ your answer: when will you sell your BTC? I'm asking seriously.
 
Well it has‌ some cultish aspects (which might be also bullish for price as religions / cults can‍ spread fast).

S2F model from planB has some valid points in my view and seems⁠ well researched and the guy knows what hes talking about.
 
Tesla doesnt have a fixed share supply that is cut in half every 4 years⁤ until 2140 when the supply drop dry.
Enron and the tulips market didn't recover 3⁣ times from 85% bear market over 10 years, did they ?
do I have to⁢ repeat the same thing again ? fine here it comes ...
decentralized, borderless, peer to︀ peer, censorship resistant, trustless.
no securities, financial instruments or precious metal have those properties, hmmm︁ oh wait NOTHING ELSE have these properties ... damn I wonder why people find bitcoin︂ so valuable ?
you will never understand something if you don't even try ...

No one would hold significant︄ amount of money on any EMI you know that very well ... lets just ignore︅ the banking system that everyone rely on is open 8h per day 5 days a︆ week.
I must have dreamt a month ago when I missed the window to transfer︇ money out of my bank account on a friday afternoon and had to wait monday︈ morning over 2 days, what a fucking cult member fanatic idiot I am.

great gold beat the S&P by 10% in 2020︌ ... what a year wohooo victory !!!
oh wait S&P yield dividends and gold cost︍ 2% custody fees annually, what a fantastic investment and store of value !

Sure you can copy bitcoin‍ and name it what you want, its simply open source code at the end.
you forget a little something out there didn't you ? you will have the same fundamentals⁠ but not the same adoption ...
how long until your coin reach 500B market cap⁤ with 50B daily trading volume and is protected by over 140M hashrate, with a horde⁣ of the smartest people on earth working on improving the code ? If you do⁢ get there i will gladly invest in your coin because it mean its very valuable︀ !
You comment is very telling how little you understand this, yet you have the︁ strongest opinion possible on it ... why don't you just admit "I don't know" and︂ move on ?

A cult member up︄ 300% on bitcoin and over 400% on ethereum in 2020.
up over 100% since my︅ recent significant investment in last november.
So far my research have paid off, but yea︆ sure its gonna crash tomorrow to zero because obviously i am a moron fanatic cult︇ member who believe in fairy tale.
I sincerely couldn't care less of your opinion of︈ me 😉

those properties are coming therefore︌ they are not fundamentals, are you even trying ?
bitcoin is absolutely fine at this︍ stage of its development, even if it doesn't improve ever it will still be the︎ best store of value ever. yes without being a currency usable for groceries or the️ possibilities to reverse transaction, yes its true !
everything else that is to come is‌ an added plus, that mean the value is just going to increase even more as‍ technology around it evolve.

I will sell my crypto⁤ when i find something better to hold and grow my capital, believe it or not⁣ i try to follow everything else and so far haven't found anything better.
Eventually, if⁢ i can somehow figure out the next top and sell before the bear market, i︀ probably will, easier said than done however, especially since recent big institutions involvment in bitcoin.︁
 
I was pretty‌ clear I am all in on crypto earlier if I am not mistaken ... funny‍ I almost fall in to investing in gold at the beginning of the year, thanks⁠ god I didn't !

funny how you never comment on fundamentals when it comes to⁤ crypto, its almost as if you don't understand it ...
I can understand though, unlike⁣ gold, crypto requires significant amount of research and knowledge to understand the tech and how⁢ it work, since you don't seem interested at all to ever understand it I guess︀ you never will ... you will just watch it grow to absolute unbelievable high in︁ your eye and therefore you will keep calling people involved with it "cult member".

I think I mention before that unlike anything of religious nature, bitcoin is code that is︂ based on math and logic.
well in that case, I am a cult member of︃ math and logic, absolutely !
 
To the scamyc issue I would like to add this.
In places like Venezuela and︂ increasingly now Argentina, they love this stuff and even use it to flip houses now.︃ I just recently got an offer for buying a house in Argieland with btc hehe.︄ And I must agree. It is a much much better way than wiring dollars to︅ an us account for buying stuff in Argentina.
It is even to start eating into︆ the blue dolar exchange system. People there just do not care or actively evade these︇ oppressive communist style control systems which kyc / aml actually is.
This process will start︈ to move towards the west soon. The west got a first taste in 2020 how︉ gov oppression can look like. (The starter of a 5 course menu as to speak).︊

To the gov people reading here. If you want to kill bitcoin, abolish all kyc︋ / aml requirements and let people open bank accounts by providing just an email.
 
btw consider this :
never selling your bitcoin ever never forever ! ad vitam aeternam‌ !
you can get over 5% apy on it and you can borrow against it.‍

wonder what effect that could have on the price if many people do this ...⁠ oh wait ? up maybe ? noooo impossible this garbage fake internet money is going⁤ to zero ! ahah those stupid cult member idiots are going to lose everything !⁣
 
What fundamentals of bitcoin....lol?‍ There are no fundamentals to bitcoin (a piece of code) 🙄. The arguments and methods⁠ that bitcoin shills use to pump the price and disparage dissident voices does not work⁤ with me. I never jump on the bandwagon or follow a trend. I am glad⁣ you are writing in public your feelings about bitcoin becoming a world reserve currency etc⁢ so people can see the ludicrous nature and mind set of a bitcoin fanatic.

There is no argument that will convince a bitcoin nut sadly and I know this....lol. It's︀ like trying to reason with a Daesh (ISIS) member intent on blowing himself up in︁ front of you - its never gonna work. Most bitcoin cult members are too deep︂ and too far gone mentally.
 
so where do you think the 500B market cap,‍ 50B daily trading volume and over 140M hashrate comes from ? cult members like me⁠ ?
damn we are so many, I didn't know !

This is what I said, that does not translate to a⁢ cult member belief that bitcoin will become world reserve currency in the near future, you︀ can stop that now thanks ... you are being absurd here.
now is there a︁ chance ? yes absolutely ! when if ever ? more than a decades if not︂ two !

you are just ignoring the facts, nothing else ... if you weren't so︃ abrasive in the first place I wouldn't feel the need to defend myself and possibly︄ look like a "cult member" ...

You can't argue rationally against the fundamentals of bitcoin,︅ you know it that's why you don't try.

you are pathetic.
 
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