Bank account for NL company, large volumes

[mattmatt]

Hi,
I have a company registered in the Netherlands with a bank account at 3S Money (EMI), but due to their policy, I would like to change it. I'm based in Dubai, so many banks don't accept it. We are doing B2B trading of physical goods. We have 2-3M€ monthly incoming + outgoing. I had Wise, but they blocked our account as our business model is "high-risk."

I'm looking for any solutions.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

Hello,
Can you explain why 3S money is no longer suitable for your business?
Is there a reason why you don't use a bank in NL?
What is the average balance on your account and are you willing to invest some money with the bank?

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[Jerry1911]

Try Intergiro, Wittix, Finductive, Airwallex.

At those volumes I think it's safe to say you‌ can negotiate on fees.

 

[mattmatt]

They are pretty slow, I've made a payment, and they release it after 5 hours.‌ They also cancel my payment to XE.com because of their "internal policy." I had to‍ use their rates and lost nearly 2k$ because of that.

Most banks in NL require⁠ a managing director located in NL. I've tried some and refused in a few of⁤ them.
The average balance is 100k€. So what do you mean by "invest some money"⁣ with the bank?

 

[Jerry1911]

You could hire a Dutch resident director, I'm sure your budget allows it?

Also don't‌ forget you can use multiple EMIs at once to stay below limits for example.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

mattmatt said:
They are pretty slow, I've made a payment, and they release it after 5 hours. They also cancel my payment to XE.com because of their "internal policy." I had to use their rates and lost nearly 2k$ because of that.
Click to expand...

Well, this is understandable, they need to make money not to help xe.com to make money. I guess you can negotiate fx rates.

mattmatt said:
Most banks in NL require a managing director located in NL. I've tried some and refused in a few of them.
The average balance is 100k€.
Click to expand...

Too small balance for any big non NL bank.

mattmatt said:
So what do you mean by "invest some money" with the bank?
Click to expand...

To make the bank happy by buying their (mostly shitty) investment products.

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[mattmatt]

I've already‍ negotiated with them. Only on exchanging 200k$ to EUR, I've lost 2k$ competitive to XE.⁠
Yes, I can do that.

I rather stay as⁢ a director due to the company structure.

 

[Martin Everson]

The reality is‌ those volumes are beyond the risk appetite of most decent EMI's except the laundromat ones.‍ Your business will be of no interest to most EMI's hence.

Furthermore you are based⁠ in a country grey listed (UAE) by FATF for money laundering. This will not help⁤ either for anyone to accept your Netherlands business.

As you are also⁢ price sensitive your attractiveness to a tradiional bank or keeping the relationship will not be︀ easy.

This is what you should be doing as︂ @Jerry1911 said.

 

[Rain0241]

Ya, when I was looking for a bank for one of our clients⁣ doing import and export ,I emailed them and they just said they dont do high⁢ risk and they steer clear of providing bank accounts for unregulated Financial services, while in︀ reality we are a consultancy and the bank account is for our client.Luckily we found︁ another solution for them.

 

[Forester]

Wise sucks in⁣ general (for any more complicated, complex or anyway non-average case); but it is generally important:⁢ what is your business exactly about, what do you trade (if you can share)?
As I see in the posts above, the account balance should not be the problem for︀ an EMI. The turnover is high; but it need not necessarilly be a pain.

I have no experience with Wittix; but Intergiro, Finductive, Airwallex can︂ work for you. Currenxie IMO too.
Especially as a NL based company, did you try/check︃ Bunq Business? (I do not know how they fine are with UAE director, unfortunately.)
Yes, it is a good advice; and not only for︅ the reason of staying below limits – having a backup is extremely important, I would︆ say even a must nowadays; and with your business model probably even more.
I think so, too. For example, with the Intergiro Enterprise package it is︈ an expected behaviour (although Intergiro is not expensive in general). I might be able to︉ help you there, if necessary.
Another important factor, I have forgotten about it above: what︊ are the destinations of your payments, both in and out?

 

[GPT]

Word of warning.

Using multiple EMI’s is structuring is smurfing is⁠ triggering a lot of AML questions at the tax authorities.

 

[Jerry1911]

AFAIK smurfing (structuring) is when you‍ split a _single_ transaction into multiple smaller ones.

Using multiple bank accounts, EMIs included, is⁠ perfectly legal.

 

[GPT]

It will‍ still require a lot of information to be provided per transaction. Contracts, invoices and emails⁠ disclosed upfront to the bank before they accept / release payments.

Your definition of smurfing⁤ is right yet it’s a lot stricter than it originally was intended nowadays. The umbrella⁣ articles cover basically everything to justify an investigation and banks are the sentinel for the⁢ tax authorities.

I would therefore not blindly say that it doesn’t trigger anything.

Thinking in︀ solutions is to get a Dutch director and open a “normal” bank account. Also from︁ cost perspective a more “ok” solution.

 

[Forester]

Yes – but it is almost a general standard nowadays. (Or you⁠ must have it continuously at hand, at least.)
No objections. Unfortunately. 🙁
Well, regardless of abovementioned, using multiple accounts︁ is still a common practice. In many, many cases it is necessary for various reasons,︂ beginning from ability of a bank to handle a particular currency/region, via costs for particular︃ operations, ending with a risk management.
And frankly, I did not hear about any case︄ when usage of more than one account triggered any investigation. You did? (Of course, if︅ some of used accounts is with a dubious institution, it can trigger questions perfectly but︆ it is another case.)
I agree that it looks very︈ straightforward. But I understand well that (as @mattmatt mentioned) it simply does not fit into︉ the business model. (It is definitely not strange when someone wants to manage his company︊ personally and exclusively.)
It depends. For example, managing an another account can be much less expensive than︌ hiring an appropriate person as NL director...

 

[GPT]

Compliance is a bitch and‍ in the case where it becomes international it slowly starts to look like a fulltime⁠ position to fulfill all requirements.
Unfortunately I am aware and experienced︃ some situations where it triggered questions.

Proactive vs reactive seems to be the solution nowadays.︄ If you proactively can inform your bank / EMI etc then you have a bigger︅ / better change of remaining in good standing. When informing happens reactively then I have︆ seen institutions close accounts with a 2-3 months notice.

Specifically in NL this has led︇ to a court case which was won by the client. The problem is that the︈ damage was done already and consequently the problem not solved. A typical “too little to︉ late”.
Owh I completely agree. The problem however seems not to be what is legally allowed︍ anymore. It seems to be what banks allow you to do. Thank the bis /︎ Basel agreements for all this bs.

We haven’t seen the end of it I am️ afraid.
Normally I would‍ agree on the above, specifically because of an Dutch based director having to earn a⁠ certain income.

The current problem imo is not that cost as the director also will⁤ then be responsible for the ongoing compliance. If you have to manage compliance from a⁣ distance I can assure you that it all of sudden becomes a factor 10 more⁢ complicated compared to having boots and language on the ground.

Don’t get me wrong. It︀ is not what people want to hear nor is this what law dictates. Unfortunately life︁ / regulations / bilateral agreeements have brought us here.

If you then are not a︂ UHNWI you just have to suck it up. Many HNWI know from experience already that︃ life has become very very complicated.

Ill give a very practical example on how fucked︄ up banks are right now. Commercial party in country A has a contract with a︅ municipality in country B. Commercial party banks in the country of incorporation (country A). In︆ order to receive funds from the municipality of country B contracts have to be disclosed.︇ Given that its a governmental institution the process differs slightly from a commercial contract. Result..︈ funds initially returned to sender. A second transaction they were blocked. Upon providing all information︉ they were again returned to sender. Reasoning from the bank “who is the ubo of︊ the municipality?”. In the end it got solved. It wasn’t easy… just one example. I︋ can write an encyclopedia with examples all from the last 12 months…

 

[Jerry1911]

Feel free to make a post/thread about it. I'm interested and I'm‍ sure I'm not the only one.

 

[GPT]

Let me think about it for a‍ bit and see if I can keep the stories interesting without jeopardizing relationships with clients⁠ and banks.

Some banking examples that immediately coming to mind;

- bank not willing to⁤ execute a transfer based on a loan agreement. Had to be changed to invoices which⁣ led to creative rewriting the loan agreement as it otherwise had unwanted tax implications.

- bank not willing to execute a transfer in a group of companies (between mother -⁢ daughter or daughter - daughter) unless invoices provided. This is outrageous as there is no︀ law in the world mandating that.

The above two (three of you include the previous︁ post example) all happened with European banks in 2022.

 

[aage]

it will require a lot of excises to get such an account for a Dutch company.‍ Travelling and talking skills included.

 

[Forester]

I agree 🙁
... ... well, with respect to the stories that you posted⁤ – I believe 🙁 🙁
I am in line with︀ you (altough if someone intends to break/fool TOS, it will not help 😉 )
... better than the practice of blocking/closing the account immediately, as︃ it is common with many institutions beginning with Revolut and Wise.
A compensation for damages was not sufficient,︇ I presume?
Well, yes.
It was one of reasons backing my rebuttal.
Oh, I see. And‍ perhaps I understand. The situation with NL banks (and probably not only NL, it probably⁠ concerns more European countries) is really complicated, wrt the stories you posted.
I understand what you mean – although many of this bs is unfortunately really⁢ founded in law.

OMG. It really looks︎ like a few of jokes. Really, when you have such experience, I completely understand your️ position. Fortunately, my experience differs a little – but it can be caused just by‌ fact that I do not deal with EU commercial banks very often. And private banks,‍ reasonable EMIs and Asian banks are IMO (still) not so stupid.

 

[Cryptohodler]

How exactly can a loan agreement be⁠ turned into an invoice that too without tax implications. Invoice involves paying sales tax or⁤ vat or GST or whatever it's called in the country where sales are shown whereas⁣ loan transfers usually are tax free

Why would trading of physical goods be︄ high risk ? What are these goods ? Try currenxie . Split your volumes across︅ multiple emis if volume is the issue