Thailand tax update 20/11/23

[wellington]

unth72 said:
Well that sucks, maybe I'll have to suck it up and pay some tax. I do expect to have to pay some as I transfer living expenses into the country as well.

I've got a Thailand Elite membership until 2040 so I guess I'll be looking at loopholes like leaving the country when I bring any larger amount in at some point in the future but I'll hold off on that until there's more clarity on the local regulations in a year or two.

However I will be in their system by then which I don't like and I'm not leaving for 6.5 months making myself non resident over just a couple of million Baht but I would do it for maybe 10 or more million Baht.

I guess I'll need to consult an accountant about this, going into their tax system on a voluntary basis goes against everything I believe in and have practiced since the 90's.
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Simple loop hole is if you have a wife - you are free to gift up to 20mb (or might be 40mb) a year.

Doesn't delineate whether onshore or offshore.

unth72 said:
Well that sucks, maybe I'll have to suck it up and pay some tax. I do expect to have to pay some as I transfer living expenses into the country as well.

I've got a Thailand Elite membership until 2040 so I guess I'll be looking at loopholes like leaving the country when I bring any larger amount in at some point in the future but I'll hold off on that until there's more clarity on the local regulations in a year or two.

However I will be in their system by then which I don't like and I'm not leaving for 6.5 months making myself non resident over just a couple of million Baht but I would do it for maybe 10 or more million Baht.

I guess I'll need to consult an accountant about this, going into their tax system on a voluntary basis goes against everything I believe in and have practiced since the 90's.
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Couple of million baht is barely any annual tax to be fair..

If crypto just do P2P with the Russians”¦ loose a % sure.

 

[unth72]

Mercury said:
If you are not in the Thai system yet, I'll suggest not to declare anything beforehand.
Wait until you get official information personally of any tax change.
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100%

wellington said:
Couple of million baht is barely any annual tax to be fair..
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True, my main concern is bringing myself to their attention so I will hold off until there's some kind of clarity.

I wouldn't need to report anything until March 2025 anyway so it's not like there's any kind of rush. Maybe they will clarify by then but based on the way they run this place anything's possible.

I don't mind paying a small amount, it's the larger amounts when the 35% kicks in that I'm more concerned about.

 

[TheCryptoAnt]

The number of photoshopped statements showing 'property sales' or 'inheritances' is gonna be off the charts next year.

On another note, I'm considering that if you spend five months in Thailand per calendar year and the rest traveling, you might be able to continue as before. I don't believe the revenue department has enough manpower to monitor if you have another place you 'consider home' outside of Thailand. Simultaneously, I doubt they have the resources to police people sending themselves $5k every month.

If there's one thing I've learned about this country it's that it's very mismanaged, and people don't really want to work much, so most folks might be able to finesse it without much issue.

Time will tell, though.

 

[jafo]

TheCryptoAnt said:
I doubt they have the resources to police people sending themselves $5k every month.
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TheCryptoAnt said:
people don't really want to work much
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100% this!
Even the most ardent tax larcenists don't have this kind of energy! If the tax authorities (e.g. in Europe or other plantations) are earning €6K per month, they sure as H3ll aren't looking for ANYONE making less than that! Psychologically it's a very tough hurdle to clear. 😉

 

[Mercury]

TheCryptoAnt said:
I don't believe the revenue department has enough manpower to monitor if you have another place you 'consider home' outside of Thailand.
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The only criteria to be considered tax resident is remaining 180+ days per calendar year in Thailand.
Why would they care whether you have home or are tax resident in other countries?

 

[wellington]

It's only tax residence for 'remittance bases' if 'not savings'.

We've been grandfathered in.

If you are spending money you are earning, i'd be more worried about getting into issues over not having a local work permit.

Owning/Managing a company FYI is 'ok-grey' but the Thai's don't want to enforce against that (either domestic or international) as they'd loose a lot of VAT revenues off the bat.

And for remittance based, there's NUMEROUS ways to get around remittance tax (if income).
The easiest being 'gifting' from overseas to wife account on-shore (tax exempt) up to 20mTHB.

Other-ways include paying companies overseas arms (or international companies for a domestic service - insurance for example, my kids was 100,000 THB per year on-shore now going through the overseas arm of the insurance company - price comes down, kids insurance covered, no remittance. (white)

Then there's other ways 'pre-purchase vouchers, etc overseas' for expenditure in Thailand. (grey)

 

[TheCryptoAnt]

Mercury said:
The only criteria to be considered tax resident is remaining 180+ days per calendar year in Thailand.
Why would they care whether you have home or are tax resident in other countries?
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From what I can gather this seems to be the case. There's no 'center of life' test in Thailand.

wellington said:
It's only tax residence for 'remittance bases' if 'not savings'.

We've been grandfathered in.
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This is what I meant by 'The number of photoshopped statements showing 'property sales' or 'inheritances' is gonna be off the charts next year.'

• When did you get this money? Oh, you know, I sold this flat in 2017 and it's been sitting in cash since then; see this bank statement as proof.

wellington said:
If you are spending money you are earning, i'd be more worried about getting into issues over not having a local work permit.
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True, but isn't this the case for 90%+ of the Elite holders? Most farangs under retirement age are working in Thailand illegally, albeit not for a local company.

wellington said:
Owning/Managing a company FYI is 'ok-grey' but the Thai's don't want to enforce against that (either domestic or international) as they'd loose a lot of VAT revenues off the bat.
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word

wellington said:
And for remittance based, there's NUMEROUS ways to get around remittance tax (if income).
The easiest being 'gifting' from overseas to wife account on-shore (tax exempt) up to 20mTHB.

Other-ways include paying companies overseas arms (or international companies for a domestic service - insurance for example, my kids was 100,000 THB per year on-shore now going through the overseas arm of the insurance company - price comes down, kids insurance covered, no remittance. (white)

Then there's other ways 'pre-purchase vouchers, etc overseas' for expenditure in Thailand. (grey)
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Interesting ty

 

[wellington]

TheCryptoAnt said:
This is what I meant by 'The number of photoshopped statements showing 'property sales' or 'inheritances' is gonna be off the charts next year.'
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Bit more complicated than that, they have CRS information, so if there's a lot of funds coming in but no records provided by CRS counterparties to support they will then query, it's then on you the onus to provide documented evidence.

Photoshopped records and the AMOL/Revenue department is a very risky move... In Thailand.

TheCryptoAnt said:
True, but isn't this the case for 90%+ of the Elite holders? Most farangs under retirement age are working in Thailand illegally, albeit not for a local company.
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It's not illegal in Thailand to be a shareholder/director of a overseas company whereby you direct (digital) the process of the companies through local (operational side overseas).

It's however illegal to work... without a permit... directing is technically working... but it's a small amount of time compared to say programming etc..

I'm elite for example, i am also a director (one of the directors) and sometimes i have to be in discussions/board/other most of the time i don't but follow progress digitally of the company and think of ideas - but it's unpaid (as a shareholder - dividends on revenues).

 

[Amandograde]

wellington said:
Bit more complicated than that, they have CRS information, so if there's a lot of funds coming in but no records provided by CRS counterparties to support they will then query, it's then on you the onus to provide documented evidence.
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Making matters worse than that would be having hot CRS accounts with lots of incoming transfers there which are being forwarded to Thailand. Then you might end up being auto rekt.

 

[wellington]

Amandograde said:
Making matters worse than that would be having hot CRS accounts with lots of incoming transfers there which are being forwarded to Thailand. Then you might end up being auto rekt.
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CRS provides account value at time opposed to individual transactions.

I don't hold funds in the traditional banking system (as most expats have been de-banked and the few banks i did have in Europe for example i've closed over the years), so for me i have to point to the record source of where funds are held (veritable) as long as that can be done shouldn't be any issues for claims of x funds deposited to x bank then transferred to x domestic bank.

 

[Amandograde]

wellington said:
CRS provides account value at time opposed to individual transactions.

I don't hold funds in the traditional banking system (as most expats have been de-banked and the few banks i did have in Europe for example i've closed over the years), so for me i have to point to the record source of where funds are held (veritable) as long as that can be done shouldn't be any issues for claims of x funds deposited to x bank then transferred to x domestic bank.
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gotcha.
But how about like lets say holding some Thai stocks on the set and just live off these dividends and avoid any future transfer?
It looks like the only tax due would be the 10% wht and no filing required.

 

[wellington]

Amandograde said:
gotcha.
But how about like lets say holding some Thai stocks on the set and just live off these dividends and avoid any future transfer?
It looks like the only tax due would be the 10% wht and no filing required.
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With the world outlook, i wouldn't be buying Thai stocks lol.

War, societal breakdown, asset seizures/freezes, political persecution, race persecution etc... and that's just on the Western side.

 

[Amandograde]

wellington said:
With the world outlook, i wouldn't be buying Thai stocks lol.

War, societal breakdown, asset seizures/freezes, political persecution, race persecution etc... and that's just on the Western side.
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what that just western side means? due to pressure from the West?

imo these issues are pretty much everywhere present or at least i dont know a country/place where such a thing is not an issue.
Thats why one should not buy into this with a big portion, just like with a few % nw (which then ideally covers living costs) and call it a day with the added benefit of taxes being auto paid etc.

E.g. Switzerland just shafted credit suisse shareholders this year, pretty much on an arbitrarily basis with all shareholder rights basically going out the window over night. Widespread asset freezes throughout the west is also happily executed.
Would totally expect Singapore and HK to pick the China side should the Us start their next (unsuccessful) venture in the region, which then would not look good for Western passport holders banking there etc..

 

[wellington]

Amandograde said:
what that just western side means? due to pressure from the West?

imo these issues are pretty much everywhere present or at least i dont know a country/place where such a thing is not an issue.
Thats why one should not buy into this with a big portion, just like with a few % nw (which then ideally covers living costs) and call it a day with the added benefit of taxes being auto paid etc.

E.g. Switzerland just shafted credit suisse shareholders this year, pretty much on an arbitrarily basis with all shareholder rights basically going out the window over night. Widespread asset freezes throughout the west is also happily executed.
Would totally expect Singapore and HK to pick the China side should the Us start their next (unsuccessful) venture in the region, which then would not look good for Western passport holders banking there etc..
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I told my friends to get out of CS about 6-12 months before, most took notice and did ok, neighbour didn't he lost a considerable amount holding their bonds.

I'd hazard a guess Singapore.

 

[Amandograde]

wellington said:
I told my friends to get out of CS about 6-12 months before, most took notice and did ok, neighbour didn't he lost a considerable amount holding their bonds.
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yah, the west is pretty much over regarding rule of law. Come an "emergency" which as you said can even be seen before, the law goes out the window pretty quickly.

 

[wellington]

Amandograde said:
yah, the west is pretty much over regarding rule of law. Come an "emergency" which as you said can even be seen before, the law goes out the window pretty quickly.
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On that part rule of law - they voted to not bail out banks (wise choice considering the size of the population and the funds predominantly being non Swiss) - Swiss gov pressured by the Fed and in part supported by the Fed ignored that and went ahead because it could of caused a cascading effect

 

[jafo]

Amandograde said:
yah, the west is pretty much over regarding rule of law. Come an "emergency" which as you said can even be seen before, the law goes out the window pretty quickly.
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Being around "men of law" in my childhood, I figured this out pretty quickly and it's always great when the Joker reminds us of it:

 

[TheCryptoAnt]

wellington said:
Bit more complicated than that, they have CRS information, so if there's a lot of funds coming in but no records provided by CRS counterparties to support they will then query, it's then on you the onus to provide documented evidence.
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Sure but theres ways around this iykwim

wellington said:
Photoshopped records and the AMOL/Revenue department is a very risky move... In Thailand.
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Hey this is TH, who doesnt like a but or risk? ange¤%&

TLDR of this story for me... I refuse to pay. Want my money? Come get it

 

[Amandograde]

TheCryptoAnt said:
Sure but theres ways around this iykwim



Hey this is TH, who doesnt like a but or risk? ange¤%&

TLDR of this story for me... I refuse to pay. Want my money? Come get it
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defo, esp for those who bought the expensive visa. Thats like more than enough "tax" paid upfront covering the average lifetime tax payments of maybe a 100 ppl.

 

[TheCryptoAnt]

Amandograde said:
defo, esp for those who bought the expensive visa. Thats like more than enough "tax" paid upfront covering the average lifetime tax payments of maybe a 100 ppl.
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Try 1ok imo; most Thais don't pay taxes or get paid too little so their tax obligation is low.

Want me to pay taxes? Eliminate the two-tier payment system and let me use public services. Additionally, make Elite holders elegible for citizenship instead of forever tourists.