Bank account for NL company, large volumes

[mattmatt]

Hi,
I have a company registered in the Netherlands with a bank account at 3S Money (EMI), but due to their policy, I would like to change it. I'm based in Dubai, so many banks don't accept it. We are doing B2B trading of physical goods. We have 2-3M€ monthly incoming + outgoing. I had Wise, but they blocked our account as our business model is "high-risk."

I'm looking for any solutions.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

Hello,
Can you explain why 3S money is no longer suitable for your business?
Is there a reason why you don't use a bank in NL?
What is the average balance on your account and are you willing to invest some money with the bank?

Toggle signature

@JohnnyDoe ”“ Your #1 Source for Guidance in Different Offshore Fields​

 

[Jerry1911]

Try Intergiro, Wittix, Finductive, Airwallex.

At those volumes I think it's safe to say you can negotiate on fees.

 

[mattmatt]

They are pretty slow, I've made a payment, and they release it after 5 hours. They also cancel my payment to XE.com because of their "internal policy." I had to use their rates and lost nearly 2k$ because of that.

Most banks in NL require a managing director located in NL. I've tried some and refused in a few of them.
The average balance is 100k€. So what do you mean by "invest some money" with the bank?

 

[Jerry1911]

You could hire a Dutch resident director, I'm sure your budget allows it?

Also don't forget you can use multiple EMIs at once to stay below limits for example.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

mattmatt said:
They are pretty slow, I've made a payment, and they release it after 5 hours. They also cancel my payment to XE.com because of their "internal policy." I had to use their rates and lost nearly 2k$ because of that.
Click to expand...

Well, this is understandable, they need to make money not to help xe.com to make money. I guess you can negotiate fx rates.

mattmatt said:
Most banks in NL require a managing director located in NL. I've tried some and refused in a few of them.
The average balance is 100k€.
Click to expand...

Too small balance for any big non NL bank.

mattmatt said:
So what do you mean by "invest some money" with the bank?
Click to expand...

To make the bank happy by buying their (mostly shitty) investment products.

Toggle signature

@JohnnyDoe ”“ Your #1 Source for Guidance in Different Offshore Fields​

 

[mattmatt]

JohnnyDoe said:
Well, this is understandable, they need to make money not to help xe.com to make money. I guess you can negotiate fx rates.
Click to expand...

I've already negotiated with them. Only on exchanging 200k$ to EUR, I've lost 2k$ competitive to XE.

JohnnyDoe said:
To make the bank happy by buying their (mostly shitty) investment products.
Click to expand...

Yes, I can do that.

Jerry1911 said:
You could hire a Dutch resident director, I'm sure your budget allows it?

Also don't forget you can use multiple EMIs at once to stay below limits for example.
Click to expand...

I rather stay as a director due to the company structure.

 

[Martin Everson]

mattmatt said:
We have 2-3M€ monthly incoming + outgoing.
Click to expand...

The reality is those volumes are beyond the risk appetite of most decent EMI's except the laundromat ones. Your business will be of no interest to most EMI's hence.

Furthermore you are based in a country grey listed (UAE) by FATF for money laundering. This will not help either for anyone to accept your Netherlands business.

mattmatt said:
I had to use their rates and lost nearly 2k$ because of that.
Click to expand...

As you are also price sensitive your attractiveness to a tradiional bank or keeping the relationship will not be easy.

Jerry1911 said:
Also don't forget you can use multiple EMIs at once to stay below limits for example.
Click to expand...

This is what you should be doing as @Jerry1911 said.

Toggle signature
Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[Rain0241]

mattmatt said:
Hi,
I have a company registered in the Netherlands with a bank account at 3S Money (EMI), but due to their policy, I would like to change it. I'm based in Dubai, so many banks don't accept it. We are doing B2B trading of physical goods. We have 2-3M€ monthly incoming + outgoing. I had Wise, but they blocked our account as our business model is "high-risk."

I'm looking for any solutions.
Click to expand...

Ya, when I was looking for a bank for one of our clients doing import and export ,I emailed them and they just said they dont do high risk and they steer clear of providing bank accounts for unregulated Financial services, while in reality we are a consultancy and the bank account is for our client.Luckily we found another solution for them.

 

[Forester]

mattmatt said:
Hi,
I have a company registered in the Netherlands with a bank account at 3S Money (EMI), but due to their policy, I would like to change it. I'm based in Dubai, so many banks don't accept it. We are doing B2B trading of physical goods. We have 2-3M€ monthly incoming + outgoing. I had Wise, but they blocked our account as our business model is "high-risk."
Click to expand...

Wise sucks in general (for any more complicated, complex or anyway non-average case); but it is generally important: what is your business exactly about, what do you trade (if you can share)?
As I see in the posts above, the account balance should not be the problem for an EMI. The turnover is high; but it need not necessarilly be a pain.

mattmatt said:
I'm looking for any solutions.
Click to expand...

Jerry1911 said:
Try Intergiro, Wittix, Finductive, Airwallex.
Click to expand...

I have no experience with Wittix; but Intergiro, Finductive, Airwallex can work for you. Currenxie IMO too.
Especially as a NL based company, did you try/check Bunq Business? (I do not know how they fine are with UAE director, unfortunately.)

Jerry1911 said:
Also don't forget you can use multiple EMIs at once to stay below limits for example.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is a good advice; and not only for the reason of staying below limits ”“ having a backup is extremely important, I would say even a must nowadays; and with your business model probably even more.

Jerry1911 said:
At those volumes I think it's safe to say you can negotiate on fees.
Click to expand...

I think so, too. For example, with the Intergiro Enterprise package it is an expected behaviour (although Intergiro is not expensive in general). I might be able to help you there, if necessary.
Another important factor, I have forgotten about it above: what are the destinations of your payments, both in and out?

Toggle signature
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am just a simple countryman. Anything I say is only a personal opinion, not a certified advice 🙂

If you think it makes sense, you can like it; if opposite, please, tell me, why I am wrong...

 

[GPT]

Jerry1911 said:
You could hire a Dutch resident director, I'm sure your budget allows it?

Also don't forget you can use multiple EMIs at once to stay below limits for example.
Click to expand...

Word of warning.

Using multiple EMI's is structuring is smurfing is triggering a lot of AML questions at the tax authorities.

 

[Jerry1911]

GPT said:
Using multiple EMI's is structuring is smurfing is triggering a lot of AML questions at the tax authorities.
Click to expand...

AFAIK smurfing (structuring) is when you split a _single_ transaction into multiple smaller ones.

Using multiple bank accounts, EMIs included, is perfectly legal.

 

[GPT]

Jerry1911 said:
AFAIK smurfing (structuring) is when you split a _single_ transaction into multiple smaller ones.

Using multiple bank accounts, EMIs included, is perfectly legal.
Click to expand...

It will still require a lot of information to be provided per transaction. Contracts, invoices and emails disclosed upfront to the bank before they accept / release payments.

Your definition of smurfing is right yet it's a lot stricter than it originally was intended nowadays. The umbrella articles cover basically everything to justify an investigation and banks are the sentinel for the tax authorities.

I would therefore not blindly say that it doesn't trigger anything.

Thinking in solutions is to get a Dutch director and open a “normal” bank account. Also from cost perspective a more “ok” solution.

 

[Forester]

GPT said:
It will still require a lot of information to be provided per transaction. Contracts, invoices and emails disclosed upfront to the bank before they accept / release payments.
Click to expand...

Yes ”“ but it is almost a general standard nowadays. (Or you must have it continuously at hand, at least.)

GPT said:
Your definition of smurfing is right yet it's a lot stricter than it originally was intended nowadays. The umbrella articles cover basically everything to justify an investigation and banks are the sentinel for the tax authorities.
Click to expand...

No objections. Unfortunately. 🙁

GPT said:
I would therefore not blindly say that it doesn't trigger anything.
Click to expand...

Well, regardless of abovementioned, using multiple accounts is still a common practice. In many, many cases it is necessary for various reasons, beginning from ability of a bank to handle a particular currency/region, via costs for particular operations, ending with a risk management.
And frankly, I did not hear about any case when usage of more than one account triggered any investigation. You did? (Of course, if some of used accounts is with a dubious institution, it can trigger questions perfectly but it is another case.)

GPT said:
Thinking in solutions is to get a Dutch director and open a “normal” bank account.
Click to expand...

I agree that it looks very straightforward. But I understand well that (as @mattmatt mentioned) it simply does not fit into the business model. (It is definitely not strange when someone wants to manage his company personally and exclusively.)

GPT said:
Also from cost perspective a more “ok” solution.
Click to expand...

It depends. For example, managing an another account can be much less expensive than hiring an appropriate person as NL director...

Toggle signature
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am just a simple countryman. Anything I say is only a personal opinion, not a certified advice 🙂

If you think it makes sense, you can like it; if opposite, please, tell me, why I am wrong...

 

[GPT]

Forester said:
Yes ”“ but it is almost a general standard nowadays. (Or you must have it continuously at hand, at least.)
Click to expand...

Compliance is a bitch and in the case where it becomes international it slowly starts to look like a fulltime position to fulfill all requirements.

Forester said:
No objections. Unfortunately. 🙁

Well, regardless of abovementioned, using multiple accounts is still a common practice. In many, many cases it is necessary for various reasons, beginning from ability of a bank to handle a particular currency/region, via costs for particular operations, ending with a risk management.
And frankly, I did not hear about any case when usage of more than one account triggered any investigation. You did? (Of course, if some of used accounts is with a dubious institution, it can trigger questions perfectly but it is another case.)
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I am aware and experienced some situations where it triggered questions.

Proactive vs reactive seems to be the solution nowadays. If you proactively can inform your bank / EMI etc then you have a bigger / better change of remaining in good standing. When informing happens reactively then I have seen institutions close accounts with a 2-3 months notice.

Specifically in NL this has led to a court case which was won by the client. The problem is that the damage was done already and consequently the problem not solved. A typical “too little to late”.

Forester said:
I agree that it looks very straightforward. But I understand well that (as @mattmatt mentioned) it simply does not fit into the business model. (It is definitely not strange when someone wants to manage his company personally and exclusively.)
Click to expand...

Owh I completely agree. The problem however seems not to be what is legally allowed anymore. It seems to be what banks allow you to do. Thank the bis / Basel agreements for all this bs.

We haven't seen the end of it I am afraid.

Forester said:
It depends. For example, managing an another account can be much less expensive than hiring an appropriate person as NL director...
Click to expand...

Normally I would agree on the above, specifically because of an Dutch based director having to earn a certain income.

The current problem imo is not that cost as the director also will then be responsible for the ongoing compliance. If you have to manage compliance from a distance I can assure you that it all of sudden becomes a factor 10 more complicated compared to having boots and language on the ground.

Don't get me wrong. It is not what people want to hear nor is this what law dictates. Unfortunately life / regulations / bilateral agreeements have brought us here.

If you then are not a UHNWI you just have to suck it up. Many HNWI know from experience already that life has become very very complicated.


Ill give a very practical example on how fucked up banks are right now. Commercial party in country A has a contract with a municipality in country B. Commercial party banks in the country of incorporation (country A). In order to receive funds from the municipality of country B contracts have to be disclosed. Given that its a governmental institution the process differs slightly from a commercial contract. Result.. funds initially returned to sender. A second transaction they were blocked. Upon providing all information they were again returned to sender. Reasoning from the bank “who is the ubo of the municipality?”. In the end it got solved. It wasn't easy”¦ just one example. I can write an encyclopedia with examples all from the last 12 months”¦

 

[Jerry1911]

GPT said:
I can write an encyclopedia with examples all from the last 12 months”¦
Click to expand...

Feel free to make a post/thread about it. I'm interested and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

[GPT]

Jerry1911 said:
Feel free to make a post/thread about it. I'm interested and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Click to expand...

Let me think about it for a bit and see if I can keep the stories interesting without jeopardizing relationships with clients and banks.

Some banking examples that immediately coming to mind;

- bank not willing to execute a transfer based on a loan agreement. Had to be changed to invoices which led to creative rewriting the loan agreement as it otherwise had unwanted tax implications.

- bank not willing to execute a transfer in a group of companies (between mother - daughter or daughter - daughter) unless invoices provided. This is outrageous as there is no law in the world mandating that.

The above two (three of you include the previous post example) all happened with European banks in 2022.

 

[aage]

GPT said:
Thinking in solutions is to get a Dutch director and open a “normal” bank account. Also from cost perspective a more “ok” solution.
Click to expand...

it will require a lot of excises to get such an account for a Dutch company. Travelling and talking skills included.

 

[Forester]

GPT said:
Compliance is a bitch and in the case where it becomes international it slowly starts to look like a fulltime position to fulfill all requirements.
Click to expand...

I agree 🙁

GPT said:
Unfortunately I am aware and experienced some situations where it triggered questions.
Click to expand...

... ... well, with respect to the stories that you posted ”“ I believe 🙁 🙁

GPT said:
Proactive vs reactive seems to be the solution nowadays. If you proactively can inform your bank / EMI etc then you have a bigger / better change of remaining in good standing.
Click to expand...

I am in line with you (altough if someone intends to break/fool TOS, it will not help 😉 )

GPT said:
When informing happens reactively then I have seen institutions close accounts with a 2-3 months notice.
Click to expand...

... better than the practice of blocking/closing the account immediately, as it is common with many institutions beginning with Revolut and Wise.

GPT said:
Specifically in NL this has led to a court case which was won by the client. The problem is that the damage was done already and consequently the problem not solved. A typical “too little to late”.
Click to expand...

A compensation for damages was not sufficient, I presume?

GPT said:
Owh I completely agree. The problem however seems not to be what is legally allowed anymore. It seems to be what banks allow you to do. Thank the bis / Basel agreements for all this bs.

We haven't seen the end of it I am afraid.
Click to expand...

Well, yes.

GPT said:
Normally I would agree on the above, specifically because of an Dutch based director having to earn a certain income.
Click to expand...

It was one of reasons backing my rebuttal.

GPT said:
The current problem imo is not that cost as the director also will then be responsible for the ongoing compliance. If you have to manage compliance from a distance I can assure you that it all of sudden becomes a factor 10 more complicated compared to having boots and language on the ground.
Click to expand...

Oh, I see. And perhaps I understand. The situation with NL banks (and probably not only NL, it probably concerns more European countries) is really complicated, wrt the stories you posted.

GPT said:
Don't get me wrong. It is not what people want to hear nor is this what law dictates. Unfortunately life / regulations / bilateral agreeements have brought us here.
Click to expand...

I understand what you mean ”“ although many of this bs is unfortunately really founded in law.

GPT said:
Ill give a very practical example on how fucked up banks are right now. Commercial party in country A has a contract with a municipality in country B. Commercial party banks in the country of incorporation (country A). In order to receive funds from the municipality of country B contracts have to be disclosed. Given that its a governmental institution the process differs slightly from a commercial contract. Result.. funds initially returned to sender. A second transaction they were blocked. Upon providing all information they were again returned to sender. Reasoning from the bank “who is the ubo of the municipality?”. In the end it got solved. It wasn't easy”¦ just one example. I can write an encyclopedia with examples all from the last 12 months”¦
Click to expand...

GPT said:
Some banking examples that immediately coming to mind;

- bank not willing to execute a transfer based on a loan agreement. Had to be changed to invoices which led to creative rewriting the loan agreement as it otherwise had unwanted tax implications.

- bank not willing to execute a transfer in a group of companies (between mother - daughter or daughter - daughter) unless invoices provided. This is outrageous as there is no law in the world mandating that.

The above two (three of you include the previous post example) all happened with European banks in 2022.
Click to expand...

OMG. It really looks like a few of jokes. Really, when you have such experience, I completely understand your position. Fortunately, my experience differs a little ”“ but it can be caused just by fact that I do not deal with EU commercial banks very often. And private banks, reasonable EMIs and Asian banks are IMO (still) not so stupid.

Toggle signature
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am just a simple countryman. Anything I say is only a personal opinion, not a certified advice 🙂

If you think it makes sense, you can like it; if opposite, please, tell me, why I am wrong...

 

[Cryptohodler]

GPT said:
bank not willing to execute a transfer based on a loan agreement. Had to be changed to invoices which led to creative rewriting the loan agreement as it otherwise had unwanted tax implications
Click to expand...

How exactly can a loan agreement be turned into an invoice that too without tax implications. Invoice involves paying sales tax or vat or GST or whatever it's called in the country where sales are shown whereas loan transfers usually are tax free

mattmatt said:
Hi,
I have a company registered in the Netherlands with a bank account at 3S Money (EMI), but due to their policy, I would like to change it. I'm based in Dubai, so many banks don't accept it. We are doing B2B trading of physical goods. We have 2-3M€ monthly incoming + outgoing. I had Wise, but they blocked our account as our business model is "high-risk."

I'm looking for any solutions.
Click to expand...

Why would trading of physical goods be high risk ? What are these goods ? Try currenxie . Split your volumes across multiple emis if volume is the issue

Last edited: Sep 8, 2022