List of Method to Spend Bitcoin without Trace

[thunderfrog33]

All you need to know that ETH doesn't provide you with ANY privacy is to go on twitter and search "@whale_alert #ETH" Your transactions are public and transparent for the whole world to see. All they need to do is associate your wallet address to your identity. Even if whale_alert doesn't have that information and says "unknown", chain analysis companies absolutely do. They buy that information from KYC exchanges and centralized crypto payment gateways.
Your response might be: "But I'll just move my coins to my own wallet from the exchange" - to which I'd reply crypto chain-analysis companies aren't idiots, that's taken under consideration when assigning wallet addresses to your identity; It's only one hop away in the transaction graph.


I have no idea why you keep bringing up 0xMonero. This unknown project isn't even fully implemented yet and the website doesn't work (really... try clicking around). Doesn't build much confidence.

Monero has 3rd largest number of engineers and research contributors in the crypto space - only behind BTC and ETH and is battle tested in the real world since 2014. It's fully decentralized and all of the audits and other efforts are community funded. It's so effective that the IRS has a $600k USD unclaimed bounty for anyone who can break it's privacy.

 

[CoffeeExpert]

I haven't found any errors on the 0xMonero website. I site it because it documents how privacy works on Ethereum and that's something you should read up on. I will say it again, unlike UTXO based cryptos, if you deposit Ethereum or Ethereum based tokens in an exchange or smart contract and withdraw to a different wallet, and neither of those requires KYC, there is no way to link your receiving wallet to your depositing wallet if done correctly. I will provide some examples for you:

Deposit Ethereum or an Ethereum token into a non-KYC exchange like Tradeogre and withdraw at a later date. Your withdrawal will be one of hundreds. If the withdraw amount is different than the deposit amount and you withdrew to a different wallet, there is no UTXO based data to link Ethereum from wallets that it was in before depositing to Tradeogre. Tradeogre would know that an email account associated to the trading account deposited and possibly an IP address but that is the case with all cryptos so use a VPN and a private email.

Deposit an Ethereum token into a token bridge contract to BSC, Polygon, xDAI or another chain. Ethereum tokens in this case will receive a completely different contract address. This means that whomever is tracking Ethereum transactions also has to track transactions on every chain with a bridge to Ethereum and track each contract name. A validator will send your token to your wallet on that chain. Send to a different wallet on that chain using perhaps a Uniswap fork advanced mode with a different receiving address then send to the bridge contract to return to Ethereum at a later date at a different address or even send from the bridge you are using to a different contract on another bridge.

Wrap your Ethereum or Ethereum token using bulletproofs and stealth addresses on incognito chain using a smart contract bridge.

Deposit your funds in a popular casino then withdraw to a new wallet. Make sure you leave your deposit in the casino for some time and withdraw a different amount than was was deposited to a different address.

Deposit your Ethereum or Ethereum token on L2, change wallets on L2, transact on L2 privately and withdraw to a different address than you deposited with with a different amount.

Deposit your Ethereum or Ethereum token in an off-chain tip wallet like CCtip. Trade, buy, and send completely privately then withdraw to a different wallet than you received with using a different amount.


With Ethereum and Ethereum tokens you are hiding accounts, with UTXO based cryptos you are hiding the cryptos themselves. You don't need to ring-ct etc. for account based cryptos, there is no UTXO based data to mix, the tokens themselves have no identifying information and cannot be blacklisted.

 

[CoffeeExpert]

One of the benefits of Ethereum and Ethereum tokens is that they can be traded on decentralized exchanges without KYC. Once such exchange, Uniswap, has more trade volume than the largest exchange in the US, coinbase. Ethereum and Ethereum tokens can interact with decentralized platforms and applications, most other cryptos like Bitcoin and Monero are based on old technology and only function as a means of payment.

 

[erni]

So Ethereum over Monero and ZCash when it comes to anonymity when trading or paying with your crypto coins, is that what you say?

 

[thunderfrog33]

erni said:
So Ethereum over Monero and ZCash when it comes to anonymity when trading or paying with your crypto coins, is that what you say?
Click to expand...

I think (s)he is

CoffeeExpert said:
Deposit an Ethereum token into a token bridge contract to BSC, Polygon, xDAI or another chain. Ethereum tokens in this case will receive a completely different contract address. This means that whomever is tracking Ethereum transactions also has to track transactions on every chain with a bridge to Ethereum and track each contract name. A validator will send your token to your wallet on that chain. Send to a different wallet on that chain using perhaps a Uniswap fork advanced mode with a different receiving address then send to the bridge contract to return to Ethereum at a later date at a different address or even send from the bridge you are using to a different contract on another bridge.
Click to expand...

Wow so easy! I'm not sure if you're you joking here? Do you realize that you're asking the average user to go through all of that just for some basic privacy? Instead of all of that nonsense hoop jumping, just use Monero and send a regular transaction. Easy, fast, and cheap (~$0.002 per transaction).

I can, but don't want to go through and explain why each of your methods is a bad idea, but look at it this way: You've listed a lot of methods of washing/tumbling your Ethereum to make transactions private. Why do all that if it's impossible to track transactions because ETH isn't based on UTXO lmao.

Please don't take this personally, and think about the logical fallacy there.

CoffeeExpert said:
One of the benefits of Ethereum and Ethereum tokens is that they can be traded on decentralized exchanges without KYC.
Click to expand...

That's true of most (if not all) crypto's. There's Bisq, LocalMonero & Agoradesk, there's also Hevano (launching very soon), and two different atomic swap implementations by two different teams that are set to launch this year.

CoffeeExpert said:
With Ethereum and Ethereum tokens you are hiding accounts, with UTXO based cryptos you are hiding the cryptos themselves. You don't need to ring-ct etc. for account based cryptos, there is no UTXO based data to mix, the tokens themselves have no identifying information and cannot be blacklisted.
Click to expand...

I think I covered this in my previous reply, but I'll do so again for clarity and emphasis. You don't need to look at the history of coins to trace transactions. You can trace transactions between wallets, and that's just as effective.

If you know some Graph Theory, maybe this analogy will be helpful: In UTXO based coins like BTC you have public information about the edges(coin transactions). In wallet/account based coins like ETH you have public information about the nodes (aka wallets), however, those nodes have public information about transaction history - i.e how much was transferred to/from which other node. That's sufficient data to reconstruct the complete transaction graph.


I hope this was helpful. Please let me know if my analogy wasn't clear and I can try and explain it a different way.

Last edited: May 11, 2021

 

[CoffeeExpert]

erni said:
So Ethereum over Monero and ZCash when it comes to anonymity when trading or paying with your crypto coins, is that what you say?
Click to expand...

Why would you even use Monero or ZCash? They can only be used for payment and they have no other use case. Ethereum is a world computer that can run apps and transfer value. Ethereum can be private if you use it as directed. zk-SNARKS makes ZCash obsolete and Monero is just an overpriced fork of Bytecoin that can be tracked.

 

[CoffeeExpert]

thunderfrog33 said:
I think (s)he is


Wow so easy! I'm not sure if you're you joking here? Do you realize that you're asking the average user to go through all of that just for some basic privacy? Instead of all of that nonsense hoop jumping, just use Monero and send a regular transaction. Easy, fast, and cheap (~$0.002 per transaction).

I can, but don't want to go through and explain why each of your methods is a bad idea, but look at it this way: You've listed a lot of methods of washing/tumbling your Ethereum to make transactions private. Why do all that if it's impossible to track transactions because ETH isn't based on UTXO lmao.

Please don't take this personally, and think about the logical fallacy there.


That's true of most (if not all) crypto's. There's Bisq, LocalMonero & Agoradesk, there's also Hevano (launching very soon), and two different atomic swap implementations by two different teams that are set to launch this year.



I think I covered this in my previous reply, but I'll do so again for clarity and emphasis. You don't need to look at the history of coins to trace transactions. You can trace transactions between wallets, and that's just as effective.

If you know some Graph Theory, maybe this analogy will be helpful: In UTXO based coins like BTC you have public information about the edges(coin transactions). In wallet/account based coins like ETH you have public information about the nodes (aka wallets), however, those nodes have public information about transaction history - i.e how much was transferred to/from which other node. That's sufficient data to reconstruct the complete transaction graph.


I hope this was helpful. Please let me know if my analogy wasn't clear and I can try and explain it a different way.
Click to expand...

I am citing a variety of examples for the reader. It's as easy as making a couple transactions. As stated, the withdrawal amount from an exchange or contract should be to a different wallet and a different amount than the deposit and there should be a time delay. With enough transactions going through the exchange or contract you will not be able to determine which funds belong to the originating wallet because account based cryptos have no identifying information like UTXO. UTXO needs Ring-ct etc. because the blockchain is completely transparent and every coin carries a history where it has been, vs wallet based tracking on account based cryptos.

You listed centralized services that allow you to trade, I listed decentralized immutable and uncensorable platforms.

Monero is not easy or fast I can guarantee you that and it's only cheap because not as many people are using it as other chains. In order to access all of Monero's features you need to run the CLI wallet and most people are not going to understand how to do that. Monero cannot scale to be used as a currency because of speed restrictions involving bulletproofs and block size limitations. For Monero to process 1000 tps would require block sizes of approximately 1+ gb and that would centralize nodes in a few small server farms across the wold that could easily be shut down. A large number of Monero nodes are currently malicious, that would make Monero even more trackable.

I can't believe after all this back and forth you didn't even take the time to read the 0xMonero whitepaper. It outlines Monero's numerous flaws and how 0xMonero has improved upon them.

 

[thunderfrog33]

CoffeeExpert said:
With enough transactions going through the exchange or contract you will not be able to determine which funds belong to the originating wallet
Click to expand...

What you describe is a more manual and leaky version of Ring CT involving centralized services like Tradegore. This is what Ring CT was literally designed to solve, but you'd rather do it manually?

CoffeeExpert said:
because the blockchain is completely transparent and every coin carries a history where it has been, vs wallet based tracking on account based cryptos.
Click to expand...

Did you read my reply above with the graph theory example? That already addressed why this statement is incorrect

CoffeeExpert said:
You listed centralized services that allow you to trade
Click to expand...

lmao which one of those is centralized? They're either cross-chain atomic swaps or decentralized p2p exchanges. Are you familiar with atomic swaps?

CoffeeExpert said:
In order to access all of Monero's features you need to run the CLI wallet and most people are not going to understand how to do that
Click to expand...

I don't think this hasn't been a thing since 2015ish? There are multiple GUI wallet software that handle everything a user needs. There are multiple very well designed GUI wallets available for both mobile and desktop available. There are many valid criticisms for Monero can be improved, but this is an ill-informed criticism to make.

CoffeeExpert said:
For Monero to process 1000 tps would require block sizes of approximately 1+ gb and that would centralize nodes in a few small server farms across the wold that could easily be shut down.
Click to expand...

You're right, that's a valid criticism. And one that should be fixed. And it is currently being chipped away at. Thankfully, we are a ways away from that. BTC currently does ~7 tps and ETH does ~10-15 tps.

CoffeeExpert said:
It's as easy as making a couple transactions
Click to expand...

I just looked it up and the current ETH transaction fee is $71 USD wtf? hahaha. You only need to spend $142 USD to follow your "easy" method of having private transactions on the ETH chain. Brilliant.

Let's be generous and say ETH does 15 tps. We also know it costs $71 to transact currently, and you're worried about potential Monero's scaling issues many years down the road at 1000 tps?

 

[CoffeeExpert]

thunderfrog33 said:
What you describe is a more manual and leaky version of Ring CT involving centralized services like Tradegore. This is what Ring CT was literally designed to solve, but you'd rather do it manually?


Did you read my reply above with the graph theory example? That already addressed why this statement is incorrect


lmao which one of those is centralized? They're either cross-chain atomic swaps or decentralized p2p exchanges. Are you familiar with atomic swaps?


I don't think this hasn't been a thing since 2015ish? There are multiple GUI wallet software that handle everything a user needs. There are multiple very well designed GUI wallets available for both mobile and desktop available. There are many valid criticisms for Monero can be improved, but this is an ill-informed criticism to make.


You're right, that's a valid criticism. And one that should be fixed. And it is currently being chipped away at. Thankfully, we are a ways away from that. BTC currently does ~7 tps and ETH does ~10-15 tps.



I just looked it up and the current ETH transaction fee is $71 USD wtf? hahaha. You only need to spend $142 USD to follow your "easy" method of having private transactions on the ETH chain. Brilliant.

Let's be generous and say ETH does 15 tps. We also know it costs $71 to transact currently, and you're worried about potential Monero's scaling issues many years down the road at 1000 tps?
Click to expand...

You must be living in 2015, haven't you heard of ETH 2.0 and L2 that exists now with 10k TPS. Yes, transactions recently spiked because people are using the network but if you use a bridge, L2, off-chain as I stated as examples, you no longer have to deal with temporary fees. Polygon for example is 7k tps and transaction fees are fractions of a penny (there is even a DEX that lets you trade for free). It's not the same as Ring-ct because no one is trying to hide the sending account, they are trying to hide the receiving account. Standardizing withdrawal amounts on a platform or contract would actually help obfuscate transactions on account based cryptos. Stealth addresses exist on Ethereum with Blank wallet and the side chain incognito. As to graph theory, it's irrelevant if you can see every transaction on UTXO. On account based cryptos you can only see account balances. There are nearly two million transactions on Ethereum per day, that's a large enough number to easily hide transactions. The Monero website clearly states that to get all of the privacy features of Monero you need to run a full node wallet with CLI. You obviously did not read the whitepaper mentioned or else you wouldn't be making these arguments. Bisq has to be downloaded to your computer, atomic swaps for Monero don't exist yet, local Monero exists on a server., decentralized exchanges run on Ethereum.

 

[thunderfrog33]

CoffeeExpert said:
There are nearly two million transactions on Ethereum per day, that's a large enough number to easily hide transactions.
Click to expand...

We have these things called statistical modeling and computers. They're very good at looking at large data-sets.

CoffeeExpert said:
You obviously did not read the whitepaper mentioned or else you wouldn't be making these arguments.
Click to expand...

I did read the monero criticisms section of that whitepaper. I think you are placing too much weight on the term "whitepaper". Do you know they aren't academic papers and are not peer reviewed right? I really hope to god you know that. Anybody can put anything in a PDF an call it a white paper. Those claims were so dishonest and blatant lies (official wallet spreading viruses? lol wtf) that I'm not surprised you've been so ill-informed about Monero & Ethereum privacy if that's your source of information.

CoffeeExpert said:
As to graph theory, it's irrelevant if you can see every transaction on UTXO. On account based cryptos you can only see account balances.
Click to expand...

Wow it's like talking to a wall. It's as if no amount of facts or reasoning registers.

Good luck to you

 

[JohnLocke]

thunderfrog33 said:
They buy that information from KYC exchanges and centralized crypto payment gateways.
Click to expand...

hmmm, to some extend you may be right. However, I know for sure that you can exchange your crypto and even accept payments using a crypto gateway where you not have to provide a single KYC document at all.

Now I wonder how would they be able to trace that?

We have had discussions about that a hundred times both here in the public forums and inside the mentor group gold where interesting stuff was posted.

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[dread pirate]

It's not actually available coffee, it's just an idea so how can you recommend it as a viable solution to anything privacy related?

 

[CoffeeExpert]

thunderfrog33 said:
We have these things called statistical modeling and computers. They're very good at looking at large data-sets.



I did read the monero criticisms section of that whitepaper. I think you are placing too much weight on the term "whitepaper". Do you know they aren't academic papers and are not peer reviewed right? I really hope to god you know that. Anybody can put anything in a PDF an call it a white paper. Those claims were so dishonest and blatant lies (official wallet spreading viruses? lol wtf) that I'm not surprised you've been so ill-informed about Monero & Ethereum privacy if that's your source of information.


Wow it's like talking to a wall. It's as if no amount of facts or reasoning registers.

Good luck to you
Click to expand...

https://thenextweb.com/news/hackers...re-into-official-monero-cryptocurrency-wallet
Account based cryptos have built in coin mixing. When a token hits a wallet it is indistinguishable from other tokens with the same name that are in that wallet. You cannot blacklist tokens, only wallets. You can blacklist UTXO based cryptos. The Bitcoin you hold in your wallet could have been involved in criminal activity and could be confiscated if you deposit in a register exchange. You could be investigated for possible involvement in criminal activity. Recently Iran stated that only Bitcoin mined in Iran can be legally used. It's possible that Bitcoin mined in China could be blacklisted because non-renewable energy was used to mine it. UTXO is inherently less private and as soon as it's common knowledge that Monero can be tracked by Darpa/Ciphertrace, people will realize that they could be involved in criminal investigations or worse. For now Monero will exist as a honeypot for people thinking they are conducting private transactions for drugs and child P**N.

It's better to hide in a crowd than to walk in the shadows wearing camo and a ski mask. Using Monero makes you a target. If you don't want to use Ethereum tokens like 0xMR, at least use a cryptonote token that is less surveilled, like Turtlecoin. Cryptonote coins are just forks of Bytecoin and all share the same code. People are paying 500 usd for a "privacy coin" that offers the same level of privacy for transactions as any other cryptonote coin.

 

[here2learn]

CoffeeExpert said:
https://thenextweb.com/news/hackers...re-into-official-monero-cryptocurrency-wallet
...

It's better to hide in a crowd than to walk in the shadows wearing camo and a ski mask. Using Monero makes you a target. If you don't want to use Ethereum tokens like 0xMR, at least use a cryptonote token that is less surveilled, like Turtlecoin. Cryptonote coins are just forks of Bytecoin and all share the same code. People are paying 500 usd for a "privacy coin" that offers the same level of privacy for transactions as any other cryptonote coin.
Click to expand...

What are your thoughts on Pirate Chain as a privacy coin? Also re: Etherium, what do you think of Blank Wallet?

 

[CoffeeExpert]

here2learn said:
What are your thoughts on Pirate Chain as a privacy coin? Also re: Etherium, what do you think of Blank Wallet?
Click to expand...

Blank wallet provides stealth addresses for Ethereum, which effectively hides the identity of the sender. The issue is that funds must be held in the blank wallet contract, which could be stolen and transactions on etherscan should indicate that the funds originated from blank wallet, which would make the transaction suspicious. They should have named their contract something like Uniswap v2 or something. Piratechain only functions as money and has no smart contract functionality to the best of my knowledge. Ethereum and Ethereum tokens can interact with dapps, code run on Ethereum that provides extra utility and functionality.

 

[here2learn]

CoffeeExpert said:
Blank wallet provides stealth addresses for Ethereum, which effectively hides the identity of the sender. The issue is that funds must be held in the blank wallet contract, which could be stolen and transactions on etherscan should indicate that the funds originated from blank wallet, which would make the transaction suspicious. They should have named their contract something like Uniswap v2 or something. Piratechain only functions as money and has no smart contract functionality to the best of my knowledge. Ethereum and Ethereum tokens can interact with dapps, code run on Ethereum that provides extra utility and functionality.
Click to expand...

Interesting, cheers!

 

[joffreylol]

Although they were heated, I've learned a lot from the arguing between CoffeeExpert and thunderfrog33. It was interesting to learn flaws for both types of currencies discussed, thank you for that 🙂

 

[mightjustask]

Register IT corp and Invoice the transaction
Click to expand...

How would this work? Can anyone explain the flow?

 

[troubled soul]

mightjustask said:
How would this work? Can anyone explain the flow?
Click to expand...

"OTC Deal" to sell and buy bitcoin.
You can find bitcoin buyer on Localbitcoin

 

[erni]

mightjustask said:
How would this work? Can anyone explain the flow?
Click to expand...

Create a company (special setup as you may know from mentor group gold) and start invoicing from there. Find nominees that can send the invoices. It is complicated to speak about here. Join mentor group gold and I can give you a step by step guide. There is also alot there already.