Thailand is no longer an option: What else?

[JackAlabama]

now youre getting closer to the root.
Which ones? all these⁤ are roughly the same. Singapore too has a broad and extensive political risk for western⁣ passport holders, going forward with an eventual war with US/ China.
Thailand has a more⁢ straight forward approach towards investing than others if you hit it from the right angle.︀

 

[Wellington]

CPI adjusted is‌ not something you need to be concerned over...

Everything - the entire world is driven‍ by refinance cycles, the entire world blew up in 2008 and there was a debt⁠ jubilee, today that leads to re-finance cycles, and printing the difference, the only thing that⁤ offsets the amount of printing needed is productivity, in a world of declining western productivity,⁣ that is offset with technology.

Hence the NASDAQ has outperformed currency debasement and the S&P⁢ hasn't, now Crypto also serves the same function as it's both Technology + Finance ->︀ and resolves a hell of a lot of productivity constraints (the promise) the volatility however︁ makes it riskier.

CB Balance Sheets (G7) rise = currency debasement = Tech stocks +,︂ Crypto+ outperforming the market and currency debasement, whereas S&P + but static comparable to spending︃ power (currency debasement).

This has occurred since 2013 (European Debt Crisis).

America is where it's︄ impacted, because the vast bulk of Wealth from Europe etc is invested in the US,︅ the US benefits from it as it provides the powerhouse for the economy, Europe doesn't︆ really get impacted due to demographic decline except in the youth.

"To me, putting money︇ in Thailand other than the expense would add risk but less return. There are better︈ markets(higher rr) to invest" its called diversification (geopolitical, demographics, monetary, technological, commodities etc)

Thailand for︉ example would make up a % of your portfolio, low 1 figure % wise.

There's some high returns in the Thai markets, and to be fair it will absorb or︊ already is a lot of the manufacturing from China - US issues, which provides significant︋ opportunity.

I am not referring to real-estate, bars etc, but productive companies/industries.

Just seen this︌ in a article : roedl.com

In general, the Thai Revenue Code states that a tax︍ resident is only required to pay tax on foreign-sourced income (e.g., income received from employment︎ abroad from a foreign employer, income received from property located abroad, etc.) if such income️ is brought into Thailand (remittance principle). Under the current interpretation of the Thai Revenue Code,‌ foreign sourced income was only subject to tax, if it was remitted into Thailand in‍ the same year the tax resident has derived such income. Thus, foreign-sourced income was not⁠ subject to Thai income tax, if the assessable income was not brought into Thailand within⁤ the same tax year the tax resident has received it. Thus, if foreign-sourced income received⁣ abroad in 2021 was brought into Thailand in 2022, it was not subject to Thai⁢ income tax.

The aforementioned regulation now states that foreign-sourced assessable income is subject to Thai︀ income tax when brought to Thailand regardless of the year it has been derived. Thus,︁ foreign-sourced income received in 2024 and brought into Thailand in 2025 would now also be︂ subject to Thai income tax. The guideline is scheduled to be enforceable from 1 January︃ 2024 onwards. Thus, while maintaining the remittance principle, Thailand would widen the scope of taxable︄ income significantly.

The Director-General of the Revenue Department announced a “focus group” to “discuss” the︅ impacts of the guidelines, also assuring that there will be no double taxation. In this︆ regard, the Revenue Department issued a clarification on 19 September, outlining that income previously taxed︇ abroad would not be taxed in Thailand, subject to applicable treaties on the avoidance of︈ double taxation. For example, in the case of income received from immovable property, the tax︉ treaty between Germany and Thailand states that such income shall be taxed in the country︊ the property is situated in.

It remains to be seen how the regulation will be︋ implemented in practice after the feedback of the focus groups. Thailand seems to want to︌ address the case that income is neither taxed abroad or in Thailand (due to the︍ current implementation of the remittance principle in Thailand), i.e., the opposite case of double taxation.︎

Now setting aside those that live off income overseas in the same year, still being️ shafted, for those that own equity in on-going concerns overseas, they'd still be tax free‌ i.e until they remit any dividends/income from *unless earning a income and remitting*.

My concern‍ has always been the idea that i'd be charged tax for the ownership of a⁠ ongoing concern just because of being a equity owner.

Seems this interpretation is a little⁤ fairer, and opens up other avenues for bringing money in almost tax free if residing⁣ in Thailand from savings etc via the current deductions/gifting allowances.

Not really, just because︃ it has a ethnic Chinese community, Singapore has always straddled the line of playing with︄ both sides geopolitically, i.e being neutral.

 

[Wellington]

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Little nugget i was mulling over after reading articles - came across some tax‌ references ref Crypto might surprise the crypto bros.

1) Crypto people, it was declared in‍ Thaland a few years ago, that Crypto is trading occurring anywhere is taxable in Thailand⁠ (unenforceable though) because crypto has no borders as such its in Thailand with you.

2) By that same statement, any funds you have in Thailand in the form of savings⁤ redeemed into Fiat are by definition not remitted because its with you all the time,⁣ regardless of being overseas for example.

3) As such its not taxable as its savings⁢ within Thailand.

4) Someone should explore that with a legal profession, but it leaves a︀ little nugget of opportunity for a loophole on all past funds sitting idle (non traded).︁

 

[JackAlabama]

Im with︀ you on this up until 2019 and Im obv biased here, but I still do︁ not regret having liquidated my entire sing portfolio including closing accounts.

Too small and they︂ will be forced to take sides, its clear which one.
In the not so distant︃ past, it showed its stance with flying colors and they have left a clue of︄ it going forward in getting work permits renewed in 2023. Not wanting to cause a︅ debate about it, but for me this is a clue about it being a non-investable︆ place.

 

[Mercury]

I've read this statement,⁠ don't remember from who and when, something like "crypto is always with you".

But, first,⁤ declaration is not law.

Secondly, we all know the expression "Not your keys, not your⁣ coins" and in case you keep your cryptos on a CEX outside of Thailand, this⁢ is non-custodial as you're giving the foreign exchange custody of your assets. So, cryptos are︀ not technically with you and trading happening on the exchange is non-local.

 

[Radko]

Please feel free to start another thread with a title "S&P 500 is flat︀ since 2013" and I will happily show you the real numbers and how the S&P︁ 500 is NOT flat since 2013 (I promise I will account inflation into the calculation.)︂

 

[A2934]

There is now a Q&A published by the Thai Revenue Department on the proposed remittance‌ tax changes: https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/centralize/news_law_update/2566/QnA41_2.pdf This is however rather difficult for Google Translate to understand, so this‍ is more for fluent speakers of Thai. Apparently, it states that any income transferred to⁠ Thailand from years in which you were not tax resident in Thailand is tax free.⁤ Also it states that only income, but not capital remitted is taxed, though it is⁣ unclear, how this distinction between income and capital is made in practice with most capital⁢ really being income of some prior years.

 

[Wellington]

You'll have to look through past revenue department statements (few years ago).

Real growth is flat, nominal growth is⁣ irrelevant.

Only a idiot chases nominal growth without factoring real growth, real growth is chased⁢ by the quants, smartest and largest private wealth funds in the world.

Well laid out︀ here by RP.

I have no need to argue this further, you can chase pennies︁ in front of fright trains and leave the real cap managagement to us adults that︂ understand the markets obviously.

Just gone through that PDF: https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/centralize/news_law_update/2566/QnA41_2.pdf

- Ok, some thoughts.

If own own company overseas and do not remit funds into Thailand = no tax, if︃ remit 5 yrs later (example) = tax.
If sell / rent property overseas and remit︄ = tax
if earn income overseas and remit = tax

In a nutshell they are︅ going to use the CRS data, and the subject is responsible for proving there's no︆ tax...

Having said that...

Debit/Credit for big ticket items such as Insurances etc (for us︇ that's like 450,000 THB a year all added together) can be paid for with a︈ card (overseas) and it's not remitted, as it can be done online from a overseas︉ card (VAT applies though).

Other things such as food etc possibly could get away with︊ pre-paid overseas card in stores - for those pushing the risk barrier.

House Hold Staffing︋ - paid from overseas, staff declares / pays tax where relevant (establish overseas vehicle to︌ route their contracts through).

Medical - Singapore

Day to Day living 100/150,000 THB only equates︍ to around 200-250k tax before deductions.. education donations are good deductions - get 30,000 discount︎ for 15,000 donation. (i will now start recording all the donations, as we don't usually️ track these but give substantial over the years).

Big ticket items (would suggest reside outside‌ of Th in that year and remit) (bounce around)

There's a few other things but‍ for the most part i already have a period in mind 25/26 season for my⁠ dividends and i won't be tax resident nor was planning to be that period in⁤ Thailand for obvious reasons before this news hit.

So all in its ok, does mean⁣ some changes (life) but ultimately nothing too concerning.

---

One way FYI is to get⁢ around it, transfer (gift) to wife/family - upto 20m THB and then get back from︀ them. tax free -> that's covered in there.

 

[A2934]

Thailand is⁣ planning to monitor foreign card use according to Amcham presentation



https://www.reddit.com/r/Thailand/comments/16zh3k4

 

[Wellington]

Credit/Debit card is the interesting one, depends on whether it's pre-paid or‌ not i suppose.

But kind of irrelevant if you can process the transactions online from‍ overseas card, its not remittance then, just a purchase of a product/service subject to the⁠ VAT of the country.

I.e Car Insurance - in Thailand they like cash (bank transfers)⁤ and charge a premium for card (3%).

In a world where the insurance may aid⁣ in notching you up the tax brackets, then it's worthwhile, either doing a domestic card⁢ transaction online with a overseas card, or doing a international card transaction (int co) with︀ a international card.

I just ran through the numbers curiosity drove such, wife will have︁ a max of 500k THB tax, mine is savings so just have to provide evidence︂ its savings.

 

[thomasparra]

wellington said:
You'll have to look through past revenue department statements (few years ago).



Real growth is flat, nominal growth is irrelevant.

Only a idiot chases nominal growth without factoring real growth, real growth is chased by the quants, smartest and largest private wealth funds in the world.

Well laid out here by RP.

I have no need to argue this further, you can chase pennies in front of fright trains and leave the real cap managagement to us adults that understand the markets obviously.

Just gone through that PDF: https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/centralize/news_law_update/2566/QnA41_2.pdf

- Ok, some thoughts.

If own own company overseas and do not remit funds into Thailand = no tax, if remit 5 yrs later (example) = tax.
If sell / rent property overseas and remit = tax
if earn income overseas and remit = tax

In a nutshell they are going to use the CRS data, and the subject is responsible for proving there's no tax...

Having said that...

Debit/Credit for big ticket items such as Insurances etc (for us that's like 450,000 THB a year all added together) can be paid for with a card (overseas) and it's not remitted, as it can be done online from a overseas card (VAT applies though).

Other things such as food etc possibly could get away with pre-paid overseas card in stores - for those pushing the risk barrier.

House Hold Staffing - paid from overseas, staff declares / pays tax where relevant (establish overseas vehicle to route their contracts through).

Medical - Singapore

Day to Day living 100/150,000 THB only equates to around 200-250k tax before deductions.. education donations are good deductions - get 30,000 discount for 15,000 donation. (i will now start recording all the donations, as we don't usually track these but give substantial over the years).

Big ticket items (would suggest reside outside of Th in that year and remit) (bounce around)

There's a few other things but for the most part i already have a period in mind 25/26 season for my dividends and i won't be tax resident nor was planning to be that period in Thailand for obvious reasons before this news hit.

So all in its ok, does mean some changes (life) but ultimately nothing too concerning.

---

One way FYI is to get around it, transfer (gift) to wife/family - upto 20m THB and then get back from them. tax free -> that's covered in there.
Click to expand...

It seem to be okay in the greater scheme of things, and based on your personal situation.

If income is taxed (remitted or not), are foreign dividends taxed too (from passive investments such as stock ETFs, and most importantly from businesses you are actively managing or invested in), if not remitted?

 

[thomasparra]

It seem to be okay in the greater scheme of things, and based‌ on your personal situation.

If income is taxed (remitted or not), are foreign dividends taxed‍ too (from passive investments such as stock ETFs, and most importantly from businesses you are⁠ actively managing or invested in), if not remitted?

 

[Wellington]

Income overseas not remitted⁤ is tax free....

That won't change, but if later remitted will be taxed.. onus is⁣ on the remitter to provide documented evidence, Thai government is under the illusion that CRS⁢ will give them the information, but for example most of my life and most people︀ i know is outside of CRS as i don't hold cash or similar.

So their︁ theory is full of holes... but then they put the onus on you.

Dividends are taxable... they base it︆ on profit solely (documented evidence).

Those year(s) i will simply travel or base myself in︇ HK/Dubai.

Otherwise yes the new doc that came out the other day squared a lot︈ of things away (concerns).

 

[thomasparra]

wellington said:
Income overseas not remitted is tax free....

That won't change, but if later remitted will be taxed.. onus is on the remitter to provide documented evidence, Thai government is under the illusion that CRS will give them the information, but for example most of my life and most people i know is outside of CRS as i don't hold cash or similar.

So their theory is full of holes... but then they put the onus on you.


Dividends are taxable... they base it on profit solely (documented evidence).

Those year(s) i will simply travel or base myself in HK/Dubai.

Otherwise yes the new doc that came out the other day squared a lot of things away (concerns).
Click to expand...

Also using a non CRS credit card (US for instance if you can) could help with filling the not remitted requirement. Even if they were to investigate a high profile case, I am not sure they could access their information from the credit cards companies or the payment processors in Thailand.

Overseas income is not taxable, but foreign dividends/capital gains are? What if you do not remit these dividends or capital gains?

I think I would give Thailand a year or two and see what will actually happen on the ground. As you said it's all theory now and the tax office is still obviously confused.

Dubai seems to be the most flexible juridiction if you are willing to throw more money and/if your business has high earnings. I'm in the process of getting a 3 year visa in HK to have my base here as it made more sense than Dubai for me. Did you remove Malaysia from your list?

 

[thomasparra]

Also using a non CRS credit card (US for instance if you can)︁ could help with filling the not remitted requirement. Even if they were to investigate a︂ high profile case, I am not sure they could access their information from the credit︃ cards companies or the payment processors in Thailand.

Overseas income is not taxable, but foreign︄ dividends/capital gains are? What if you do not remit these dividends or capital gains?

I think I would give Thailand a year or two and see what will actually happen︅ on the ground. As you said it's all theory now and the tax office is︆ still obviously confused.

Dubai seems to be the most flexible juridiction if you are willing︇ to throw more money and/if your business has high earnings. I'm in the process of︈ getting a 3 year visa in HK to have my base here as it made︉ more sense than Dubai for me. Did you remove Malaysia from your list?

 

[Wellington]

Just on a call‍ to revenue department reference.

Ok just confirmed, no tax if you own a company overseas⁠ (equity) and get dividends, if remain in Thailand over 180 days, but don't bring funds⁤ in you don't have to pay tax.

If you later bring funds in (say 5⁣ yrs later) you have to pay tax.

Wouldn't recommend US rails for people wishing to take that risk, most︂ of this is the US pushing.

I'd imagine Chinese rails would be better.

I lived︇ in Dubai previously it was a horror show, for a number of reasons, it's soulless,︈ defunct of any character.
In addition countries that don't charge tax generally don't do accounting︉ of tax free income... and this causes a lot of issues we now have with︊ say bringing savings into say Thailand.

Better to pay a small amount of tax (say︋ 3%) .

 

[thomasparra]

wellington said:
Just on a call to revenue department reference.

Ok just confirmed, no tax if you own a company overseas (equity) and get dividends, if remain in Thailand over 180 days, but don't bring funds in you don't have to pay tax.

If you later bring funds in (say 5 yrs later) you have to pay tax.


Wouldn't recommend US rails for people wishing to take that risk, most of this is the US pushing.

I'd imagine Chinese rails would be better.
Click to expand...

That is very promising. I assume overseas equity also includes ETFs investments (cap gains + dividends) as long as not brought into Thailand.

UP in Philippines might make sense, especially using prepaid cards for full anonymity. USA does not share information through CRS, but communicate on a case by case basis so if Thailand were to ask about you to the US they might share it, but realistically I don't see this happening as a non-US person. Also this is assuming i) Thailand investigates you specifically ii) they know you are using credit cards thru which you indirectly remit to TH and iii) they know they are issued in the US (which is hard to access without CRS or credit card/payment processor info access). US seems pretty solid to me but you will never beat prepaid anonymous cards in terms of safeguarding your identity.

At the end of the day I don't think Thai tax authorities will waste their time investigating for this type of stuff, except for high profile cases (8 to 9 figures)

 

[thomasparra]

That is very promising.⁢ I assume overseas equity also includes ETFs investments (cap gains + dividends) as long as︀ not brought into Thailand.

UP in Philippines might make sense, especially using prepaid cards for︁ full anonymity. USA does not share information through CRS, but communicate on a case by︂ case basis so if Thailand were to ask about you to the US they might︃ share it, but realistically I don't see this happening as a non-US person. Also this︄ is assuming i) Thailand investigates you specifically ii) they know you are using credit cards︅ thru which you indirectly remit to TH and iii) they know they are issued in︆ the US (which is hard to access without CRS or credit card/payment processor info access).︇ US seems pretty solid to me but you will never beat prepaid anonymous cards in︈ terms of safeguarding your identity.

At the end of the day I don't think Thai︉ tax authorities will waste their time investigating for this type of stuff, except for high︊ profile cases (8 to 9 figures)

 

[Wellington]

**NOT THAT I AM ADVOCATING TAX EVASION OR VIOLATING THE LAW**

But i remember over‌ a decade ago, there was great difficulty getting money OUT of Thailand, legal firms used‍ with presence overseas (say HK) that had offices in Thailand used to charge 7% to⁠ charge a THAI Credit Card and move funds from Thailand to HK Company (overseas) and⁤ from there the funds could be moved anywhere in the world. This was how capital⁣ controls were over-ridden.

I imagine at some-point something similar will occur but with funds coming⁢ in - 7% is a lot less than say 15%, and factor in at the︀ higher end, 35% + 7% VAT Thailand becomes completely off the zone for investment /︁ living...

I've already been observing Russian intermediaries that sit in the middle of transactions [some︂ moving funds out], and others moving funds in.. This will always occur, also a flight︃ (5,000 THB) to Malaysia and withdraw 10,000$ equivalent would / could save thousands in taxes.︄

Thailand has truly shot itself in the foot, and the impact will be felt far︅ and wide, they should have instead concentrated on actually taxing the 96% of the population︆ that do not pay tax but certainly earn (in a large chunk) enough to be︇ on the lowest band, instead of trying to unjustly rob retirees, nomads, Wealthy expats and︈ of-course the productive side of Thai society to fund their populist vote buying.

On those⁢ that's covered differently, my question was specific to owning a company or larger % of︀ equity and getting 'income in the form of either salary/dividends)' and whether that was taxable︁ if left outside of Thailand - answer was clear cut NO, only taxed if brought︂ in.

As for your specific question, the principle is non-taxable, the profit is taxable, if︃ brought in, the onus is on you to provide documented evidence.

 

[JackAlabama]

The US pushes these⁢ things on others such that they themselves are the only one left with secrecy. It︀ makes sense because this stabilizes the use and the role of usd. Same with widespread︁ use of usdt, it helps funding the heavily wounded dollar with purchasing power and their︂ astronomical debt level.

Thats why today its impossible to open a company without a ton︃ of paper bs but I can just have an LLC including every fintech Id wish︄ for in just a few days with minimal paperwork.

A smart move I must admit.︅

Agreed, that policy will backfire. Baht is at a 16 year low.

They should︅ do it in reverse, you get credits if you bring fresh funds in. What they︆ are doing right now is preventing buying of baht whereas it should be the opposite︇ 😉