Relocation to Portugal? Or maybe Malta or Andorra?

[blast629]

Hi Marzio:

Thanks for the message again. Maybe I was⁢ not clear, yes, I am willing to leave Spain, but I want to be near︀ to, so I can come back whenever I want to, and even better if I︁ can do it by car (hence Portugal and Andorra).
Of course,︃ this is the reason why I am looking into moving outside, rather than just running︄ an LLC while staying in Spain, plus trying not to make ties to Spain ->︅ because on this scenario I wouldn't be able to freely use those profits.

My main︆ goals overall are:

-Relocate to a more tax-friendly country, to avoid half of my income︇ going into the State.
-Be near to Spain (I consider Malta to be near since︈ it is 3 hour direct flight, and Portugal and Andorra are obvious, since borders are︉ shared).
-Be able to use the money freely: either investments, real state, cars or whatever.︊
-Balance risks/benefits/costs (as you say, I can't be planning on a very difficult structure which︋ is by itself more expensive than just paying taxes)

Hope this help clarify what my︌ goals are!

Thanks!

 

[GuaraniGhost]

Live below tax residency requirements in each country (3months PT, 3months ES, 3months Andorra, 3months Malta)

Get a paper residency from some cheap country we discussed earlier + a US LLC tied to the cheap country residency.

 

[NewHorizon]

Live below tax residency requirements in each country (3months PT, 3months ES, 3months Andorra, 3months‌ Malta)

Get a paper residency from some cheap country we discussed earlier + a US‍ LLC tied to the cheap country residency.

 

[blast629]

Thanks for your⁠ idea, but my idea is to move to 1 country and don't keep on moving⁤ across the other 3.

My end goal is not to live in Portugal, Malta or⁣ Andorra. They are means, not ultimate goals by themselves.

I am looking for a residence⁢ where I can truly live, visit Spain from time to time and travel to some︀ other countries I may want to.

Not planning to live in 4 countries at same︁ time. 2 would be fine though (I guess I would need a 3rd one not︂ to fire the 183 days rule)

Thanks again!

 

[GuaraniGhost]

blast629 said:
Thanks for your idea, but my idea is to move to 1 country and don't keep on moving across the other 3.

My end goal is not to live in Portugal, Malta or Andorra. They are means, not ultimate goals by themselves.

I am looking for a residence where I can truly live, visit Spain from time to time and travel to some other countries I may want to.

Not planning to live in 4 countries at same time. 2 would be fine though (I guess I would need a 3rd one not to fire the 183 days rule)

Thanks again!
Click to expand...

You must check the exact requirements; I just put it as a theory. I think PT and Malta have the 183-day rule.

In general, this setup works. Digital Nomad moved out of Spain to Latin America (he has his residency there, address, and tax certificate) and now travels Europe. If they ask, you want to have a story for an ES hacienda. ES-PY DTA + tax certificate proves you live here. Then, stay below the radar in the countries where you're going to stay, close to ES.

 

[NewHorizon]

You must check the exact requirements; I just put it as a theory. I︀ think PT and Malta have the 183-day rule.

In general, this setup works. Digital Nomad︁ moved out of Spain to Latin America (he has his residency there, address, and tax︂ certificate) and now travels Europe. If they ask, you want to have a story for︃ an ES hacienda. ES-PY DTA + tax certificate proves you live here. Then, stay below︄ the radar in the countries where you're going to stay, close to ES.

 

[Marzio]

I have very hard time understanding what do you⁠ want.

If you want to move to a country where you don't really want to⁤ live because what you really want is to stay in Spain you'll be miserable.

Been there, done that.

 

[MarkusCostigan]

Are you a citizen of which country? Before proceeding with the residency, it is important‌ to know if the country where you want to take up residency is not considered‍ "black list for natural persons" (Andorra for many countries for example.)

 

[blast629]

Understood.

Basically have an story, and if you want to proof that you⁢ live out of Spain, you would need certificates/tickets of going in and out of the︀ country, and probably proof of being in other countries is also good, to make that︁ PY certificate to work.

I think this approach mainly focus on making PY a "paper︂ residence" since it is cheap. Then, live outside in Spain wherever, but below the 183︃ day threshold, and specially tracking Spain visits so if the Hacienda comes you have an︄ story.

Could be an option, but I would prefer just to relocate myself to whatever︅ the country and have the papers there. The less game, the less risks (I guess).︆
I think I was not clear. My reply was after NewHorizonsParaguay suggested to︉ be 3 months on each country.

What I mean is: none of the countries are︊ my end goal, so I am okay to live on any of them, but no︋ need to be on all of them across the year.

My idea is either live︌ PT and visit Spain, or live in Malta and visit Spain or live in Andorra︍ and visit Spain, but live 3 months Portugal + 3 months Spain + 3 months︎ Malta + 3 months Andorra is not what I need.

Just need 1 country to️ live with low taxes, which is sort of near to Spain. Just that. And afaik,‌ it could either be Malta, Andorra or Portugal.

Move there. Settle there. Come back to‍ Spain for vacations.

I just want to find a place where:

1) I can physically⁠ relocate (more than paper residency)
2) Find a good structure for my income so to⁤ pay low taxes (either plain as Andorra, either IFICI+whatever in Portugal, non-dom in Malta, etc)⁣
3) Have the ability to use the income to buy real state and cars in⁢ wherever place i relocate (therefore MT, PT or AD)
4) Have the ability to visit︀ back Spain easily (good connection by road or plane), so I can visit Spain on︁ some months of the year (basically summer and maybe Christmas)

Hope it makes more sense︂ now!!
I am a citizen of Spain.

That is why I need to discard︅ Gibraltar for example.

Thank you all!

 

[maxxs]

Hi OP. Im in similar situation to you.
I think Andorra is best choice but‌ your income may be too low, and Andorra is no bueno if youre single.
Id probably check Cyprus. Or portugal a couple years then somewhere else.

 

[blast629]

Hi mate.

Are you also coming from Spain as well? Similar income level? Similar⁤ profession? Hopefully we can find a solution together!!

Precisely I found 2 issues about Andorra:⁣

1) Few young people (mostly couples >35/40), since most people get out of the country⁢ for studying and stays abroad.

2) Pricy housing, which for the income level, makes either︀ living on a ""modest"" flat or pretty much spend all the savings on housing.

I considered Cyprus, but the problem I am finding is that plane connections to Spain are︁ much worse than Malta ones. And, at least on paper, how is Cyprus substantially better︂ than Malta for example? (Malta is smaller, but plane tickets are super cheap).

Regarding choosing︃ Portugal, and then, depending on the evolution, deciding on where to relocate (all in all,︄ after 10 years you need to leave PT anyways...), is my primary idea.

However, I︅ need to find which corporate structure can suit the PT NHR/IFICI (without costing a fortune︆ in relation to my income).

Thanks & best regards!!

 

[pixbix]

what if he decide to not stay over 180⁤ days in any country ? like 170 in spain, 170 in portugal and the rest⁣ somewhere else?

 

[GuaraniGhost]

pixbix said:
what if he decide to not stay over 180 days in any country ? like 170 in spain, 170 in portugal and the rest somewhere else?
Click to expand...

Spanish hacienda is tricky. It's not only days what count (family ties, economic interests). As far I understand they can count also days spent abroad to your tax residency status”¦ unless you prove you have tax residency elsewhere. So he would still need some setup.

 

[NewHorizon]

Spanish hacienda is tricky. It’s not only days what count (family ties, economic interests).⁠ As far I understand they can count also days spent abroad to your tax residency⁤ status… unless you prove you have tax residency elsewhere. So he would still need some⁣ setup.

 

[MarkusCostigan]

Besides saving taxes on your income, do you have other needs? For example, not disclosing‌ your assets (stocks, crypto etc.)? Are new future EU regulations causing you problems (for example‍ DAC8 etc.)?

 

[blast629]

This is a great point.

Also, this is why I clarified my end goal⁠ was not to live 3 months in Malta, 3 months in Portugal, 3 months in⁤ Andorra and 3 months in Spain.

I would just want to live enough days in⁣ Portugal or whatever, and the rest be free to visit Spain, or whatever the country.⁢
It is definitely tricky.

Currently, I am fully invested out︃ of Real State basically because of trying to have as few ties as possible when︄ I leave Spain.

Fortunately as well, I am single, so the family ties is sort︅ of solved.
To me, assets privacy is always︈ great. They can't take what they don't know you have.

In this regard, I am︉ definetely willing to pay an extra to protect myself from disclosing assets (I mean, it︊ depends if it is 20k a year or if it is somewhat reasonable for my︋ income), as well from future EU dicta... Sorry, regulations, I mean regulations.

Hope this clarifies!!︌

Thank you all for your help and ideas!

 

[PassinBy]

Portuguese Social Security is capped for self employed



https://www.reddit.com/r/PortugalExpats/comments/177lg0n/cap_on_social_security_for_highearning_freelancers

 

[blast629]

This is the reason I am looking for a structure.

If I put everything through personal‌ income on NHR, given my current income, I would be near to 27.200€ per year‍ summing Social Security + Personal Income Tax. Which is a 34% rate.

Not attractive at⁠ all

 

[Marzio]

What about moving to Gibraltar?

You can‍ spend all days in Marbella and be back home to sleep in Gibraltar.

GIB company's⁠ CIT is 15%

You'll then pay PIT on the amount you decide to take for⁤ yourself.

This is how i would start.

The next step would be to stop using⁣ the GIB company to be the operational company and instead use it as a holding⁢ company and form a subsidiary in Ceuta.

Ceuta, is the spanish enclave in Morocco on︀ the other side of the mediterreanean pond.

The best thing about Ceuta is that it︁ has a 50% discount on spanish CIT meaning you'll pay 12% CIT on all the︂ business generated from Ceuta.

The benefit is that 12% is a little better than 15%︃ that you'll pay in GIB but the real kicker is that since that income will︄ come from a subsidiary it will be tax free in GIB both on CIT and︅ PIT level meaning your total taxation will be 12%.

Not bad.

You will need to︆ hire somedoy in Ceuta that will pretend to do the job so it's not a︇ structure that you can start at your income level but surely is way better than︈ moving with sheeps in Andorra or a solution that will only last for 10 years︉ with NHR.

 

[blast629]

Thanks for the great idea.

There is a catch however: for Spanish taxpayers, the Spanish Hacienda︈ has Gibraltar in the blacklist, which means they will consider you a Spanish taxpayer for︉ the next 4 years.

Which basically means the Gibraltar setup could be suitable after being︊ in Portugal or Andorra for some time, but not for a direct change.

Spanish Hacienda︋ always trying their best to persecute!

I mean, even at a 15% corporate income, if︌ I am not forced to take a lot into salary, the summed income tax will︍ probably be low, so will probably be below the 20%... Which is more than okay︎ to me (compared to my current situation, which summing Social Security and Income Tax is️ rounding the 45-50%)

Any idea around this? Because to my eye, at least for my‌ first years, it seems like MT, AD and PT are still the only choice, although‍ some extra doors open after the "cut" with the Spanish Hacienda, opening the door to⁠ be in for example, Gibraltar.

Thanks again Marzio!