Private bank requesting tax residence certificate

[troubled soul]

You can solve your all problem by just trusting Dubai bank (It is very hard‌ but risk worth it, If you do not want to live in Dubai)........Just do not‍ open any bank account outside Dubai....Only Use Dubai bank for all your need....IMHO Dubai bank⁠ never will ask you for TRC....As they have your Emirate ID and Address which you⁤ provide......Just my 2 cent

 

[hortm]

no. it's no go in our⁣ case. at least not whole investment in one country. I still want to try finding⁢ answer to my question - if there is way to get TRC only owning apartment︀ - but not visiting.

 

[troubled soul]

https://tax.gov.ae/en/services/issuance.of.tax.residency.certificate.aspx

Did you try to get it from here ? Seems may be work︂ for your requirement ....

 

[hortm]

I am not talking about legal person.‍ I am talking about individual person. Please read what I wrote before. That online interface⁠ and wording of legislation are different - seems like TRC can be received "manually" based⁤ only on fact of apartment ownership.

 

[troubled soul]

Sorry If I understood or mention something wrong....my English is not that⁤ Good...Sorry again....

 

[Konstanz]

In most case you would never need TRC. But if you get investigated by home‌ country they will definetely ask for tax TRC. They will also write request to UAE‍ and ask if you really lived in the country.
This happened to me. They asked⁠ for TRC and wrote letters. In case you cannot provide TRC this can be problematic.⁤ This would be just additional argument to them that you are not genuine resident in⁣ UAE..

I don't say TRC is magical free pass paper. But if you cannot produce⁢ at least TRC, good luck proving your new tax residence in court 🙂 As many these︀ paper you have, the better your chance is to be on safe side

 

[karishi]

yes that's what I was saying. If I will want to buy anything over a⁤ certain sum in a OECD country, I will have to repsect the UAE rules and⁣ get the TRC in the previous 2 years. There is no other way around it.⁢

even if this was possible, which I don't think it is, your TRC would be︃ worthless in this case as you had actually spent zero days in the country. And︄ to clarify, if you trigger residency in some country, the TRC is worthless too. The︅ TRC is necessary but not sufficient to prove your foreign tax residency status, lots of︆ other things come into play.

 

[hortm]

Let's put is this way︁ - someone just may need TRC and I am wondering if there are lawyer or︂ someone who can legally get it while person was not in UAE, but has his︃ own real estate in UAE and Golden visa.

 

[Sols]

AFAIK, they do automatic check against the immigration authority when getting a TRC. If your‌ passport hasn't spent enough days in UAE, you won't be able to get a TRC.‍

 

[karishi]

I totally understood what you are asking but it's not possible, it⁤ doesn't work that way. when you submit a request for the TRC you must submit⁣ also data from immigration that demonstrates that you have been in the country. If they⁢ issued TRC without you being in the country, TRCs would be worthless. Before the reform︀ earlier this year the minimum stay was 183 days and it has been lowered to︁ 90 if you have a property, but you must stay 90 days. There might be︂ excpetions, like if you work for a UAE company which forces you to stay abroad︃ for 300 days a year, maybe the UAE would issue a TRC, which would be︄ worthless if you spent 300 days in France and France was asking you a TRC︅

yeah they get data from immigration or ask you to︈ provide it, and immigration knows when you have entered/exited the country as everything is tracked︉

 

[hortm]

I am still︃ not getting it. The wording says ANY. One of the items is having place of︄ residence. it does not say amount of days. According to that list, IMHO, TRC is︅ possible without presence. Getting online it is NOT possible because website requires entry/exit certificate indeed.︆ But manually I think it may be possible.

"If they issued TRC without you being︇ in the country" - TRC does not show if I was in the country or︈ no.

At website I see that yes. Manually (of lawyer︋ submits according to first item from list ANY conditions to be eligible) - I don't︌ know and that is what I want to find out.

 

[karishi]

I gues︁ you are refrring to this:
1. If his usual or primary place of residence and︂ the centre of his financial and personal interests are in the State, or he meets︃ the conditions and criteria determined by a decision from the Minister.
As I said, the︄ minister can decide what he wants, this is not a democracy, but in normal democracies︅ this is translated as such: "if you have wife and kids resident in the country︆ or have participations in companies in the country". So if you are the CEO of︇ a company in the UAE or your family lives in the UAE you are resident︈ in the UAE.
To clarify, for any EU country, if you have family in that︉ country, you pay taxes in that country, even if you live 365 days in the︊ UAE.

 

[hortm]

I assume minister wants investors to do︃ business there. So, I guess it may work if some lawyer knows minister or in︄ just may work if one applies for TRC with entry/exit certificate showing zero days.

 

[karishi]

You will find plenty⁠ of lawyers in Dubai which will claim this and steal you some money, you just⁤ have to go out and ask....and Dubai wants you to do business, that's why with⁣ 2 days a year in the emirate you can avoid CRS. But you will not⁢ get a TRC for free, they also want you to spend money in Dubai

 

[hortm]

But still. Let me get back to initial question in this thread.
I have zero‌ chance being investigated in my home country - I do not have to pay taxes‍ from foreign income (in my case - stock trading). I just do not want authorities⁠ here to know how much money I have.

Question - is there any real chance,⁤ for instance, Swiss or US private bank shall require TRC for some reason? Or there⁣ is "more chance for me to be hit by lightning" and I should not worry⁢ about TRCs and just provide UAE or Bahraini residence visa / ID card / Utility︀ bills?

 

[Sols]

The problem⁤ is you're asking a question to which the answer is changing as we discuss. A⁣ year or two ago, it would've been easy and accurate to dismiss requests for TRCs⁢ as something very unusual. But now that UAE is on international watch lists and black︀ lists (for tax evasion and money laundering), KYC requirements are tightening.

UAE has a big︁ problem with paper residence, where people get visas there and but don't actually live there.︂ Banks have known this for years. Regulators have finally caught up.

Your Swiss private bank︃ probably doesn't actually care, but regulators care. Regulators put pressure on banks to de-risk, meaning︄ to impose stricter checks on funds for transactions involving high risk jurisdictions (such as UAE).︅ This is why the amount of documents required just to maintain a basic banking relationship︆ keeps increasing year after year.

 

[troubled soul]

Better Idea will be Find the bank who accept you as a Digital nomad without‌ Tax residence certificate ....
I started New thread for this discussion here
https://www.offshorecorptalk.com/th...omad-without-tax-residence-certificate.41213/

 

[hortm]

Do you know︃ where exactly is any official info on that potential pressure from regulators? Like what/how they︄ will request that? I have found something vague and weak only here -

https://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-...isk CBI/RBI,the︅ location offering the scheme.
Second question about Bahrain and COR. Do you actually think COR and it's 183‌ days defines tax residency in Bahrain? Don't you think that it is actually NOT DEFINED‍ in Bahrain at current point. So, someone who spends, for instance, 100 days a year⁠ there, can declare that he is tax resident of Bahrain (because he holds gold visa⁤ and did not spend more than 100 days in any other country), but he can⁣ not provide COR to prove that because the country does not give it.

All that⁢ can be used in court vs bank if bank puts limits on funds without any︀ other reason.

Quick link for reference -
https://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-...ssistance/tax-residency/Bahrain-Residency.pdf

 

[Sols]

You just kind of have to be active and⁠ aware in the industry, I suppose. There isn't a single web page where it's all⁤ listed. It's a combination of things from changes in legislations, directives (EU), and a plethora⁣ of recommendations, warnings, guidance notes from regulators (central banks, FSAs) and international organizations like FATF⁢ and OECD.

Tax residence for individuals isn't defined in Bahrain law. But in︆ order to get a COR, you have to demonstrate 183 days of presence in the︇ country.

Think of it not like a proof that you're tax resident in Bahrain (since︈ there is no such thing under local law), but rather as a proof that you︉ probably aren't tax resident anywhere else, except for places that define tax residence more broadly︊ than just 183 days of residence per year.

 

[hortm]

But isn't it bank's task to prove in court I︃ am not genuine resident in Bahrain (in case they decided to put limits)? While for︄ CRS I have provided Bahraini residence visa / ID card / Utility bills, don't you︅ think a that point I shall have effective position to oppose bank in court and︆ unfreeze and, later, close the account?

Did UAE provided info asked in️ those letters?