I've found someone who dislikes public servants just as much as Johnny and also some empirical proofs regarding mafias in Europe

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states are mafias by definition, no need to prove anything - an organization that uses coercion to sell services nobody ordered for unilaterally determined price
 
Primat2024 said:
What is wrong with paying taxes if you get good hospitals ?
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because they are worse than they could be and regulated health care costs people their lifes (distinguish between coercive regulation and voluntary standardization)

daniels27 said:
Ok, then how about train, road and airports?
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the keywords you want to search for are anarchocapitalism and austrian economics - a person of average intelligence can usually get this after 10-20 hours of study IN CASE it's open to changing its world view
 
JohnnyDoe said:
Unless you are a parasite, in which case you are using the state for sucking blood out of other people.
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There are indeed many of them, and that is why the social democratic governments gain so much ground and win many elections. Understandably, if one does not have great success in life or is simply disabled and unable to achieve a financially prosperous life.

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void said:
the keywords you want to search for are anarchocapitalism and austrian economics - a person of average intelligence can usually get this after 10-20 hours of study IN CASE it's open to changing its world view
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I think the problem with infrastructure is not the payment itself. It is the underlying legal system which eventually enables investment in infrastructure. Take a look at any state with moderate to high corruption. There simply is no one willing to invest in roads and airports.
 
daniels27 said:
I think the problem with infrastructure is not the payment itself. It is the underlying legal system which eventually enables investment in infrastructure. Take a look at any state with moderate to high corruption. There simply is no one willing to invest in roads and airports.
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clearly, nobody wants to drive or fly... again, if you really want things to make sense you have to let bulls**t and dysfunctional patterns go and study a bit
 
daniels27 said:
I think the problem with infrastructure is not the payment itself. It is the underlying legal system which eventually enables investment in infrastructure. Take a look at any state with moderate to high corruption. There simply is no one willing to invest in roads and airports.
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What point are you making?
In those places nobody is willing to invest in the production of iphones either. Infrastructure is simple compared to todays toys. Those toys are built without governments, we might say that they are built despite governments.

If by "the underlying legal system" you mean property rights, then you're spot on - property rights and freedom of speech are the underlying system that makes trade possible.
If trade is possible, then iphones come very quickly....
No government needed. 😉

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W Fish said:
If by "the underlying legal system" you mean property rights, then you're spot on - property rights and freedom of speech are the underlying system that makes trade possible.
If trade is possible, then iphones come very quickly....
No government needed. 😉
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Yes, that's in principle what I mean. But what is the use of property rights if there is no law enforcement? They are basically worthless. You not only need the rights but also the courts and the police to enforce them.

void said:
clearly, nobody wants to drive or fly... again, if you really want things to make sense you have to let bulls**t and dysfunctional patterns go and study a bit
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@void with all due respect, could we please keep the conversation on a level that is OCT-worthy? We are all grown ups, most of us are here to learn from each other and also please remember that replying is facultativ. You do not have to come here to insult. Of course there must be good reason why most roads are built with public resources and not privately.

Apart from that I appreciate your input. But I do not agree with you. See my post above. What are your rights if they are not protected and enforable. Not sure if you now want to tell me, you can have private police and courts as well. And that's where I do not agree. It rapidly would come down to the enforcers enforcing whatever they want (I am not saying that the governments have not yet started doing this in many places) but that's the problem.

And the other problem I have with your suggestion is that any such system it is much more likely that key infrastructure ends up in monopolies.

Hence, I still stand by my point that some legal framework is indeed required. And it is not only the right to protect your property but also the laws that limit the actors in that is possible with their property. (Yes, Nestlé and Danone cannot buy all water sources and then sell bottled water at elevated prices.)
 
daniels27 said:
But what is the use of property rights if there is no law enforcement? They are basically worthless. You not only need the rights but also the courts and the police to enforce them.
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Wrong wrong wrong! It's sad to see people so deeply brainwashed.

A free market for protection and justice services would not make property rights “worthless” but instead create a system where protection is more directly accountable to those who rely on it, as private agencies would depend on customer satisfaction and reputation rather than coercive taxation (that is, pizzo).

Non state legal system are possible and have proven to work well. For instance, Bruce Benson, in “The Enterprise of Law,” shows historical examples where non-governmental legal systems can develop mechanisms to enforce property rights without a centralized authority.

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daniels27 said:
You not only need the rights but also the courts and the police to enforce them.
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The court system exists to enforce the laws created by the state as it better suits the state itself from time to time through interpretation. Justice doesn't equal to law.
Police is the armed - or unarmed - violent arm of the state.
Courts and police are part of the picciotti level of the mafia state organization, the most deplorable one as made of stupid individuals blindly serving their masters, giving up their dignity in return for crumbs at the expense of free people.

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daniels27 said:
Yes, that's in principle what I mean. But what is the use of property rights if there is no law enforcement? They are basically worthless. You not only need the rights but also the courts and the police to enforce them.
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Law enforcement does not equal government.
As with any other service - government's provided version is the worst and you will always get better AND cheaper service from market.
If you are seriuous about protecting your property rights (law enforcement) would you really go to government? 😉

cheers,
daniels27 said:
And the other problem I have with your suggestion is that any such system it is much more likely that key infrastructure ends up in monopolies.
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Wrong again. No monopoly exists without help from government. You are welcome to bring an example if you do not agree. 😉

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