Thailand Tax -> CC/DC Withdrawals (CDM/ATM)

[wellington]

Article dropped this morning

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailan...find-bogus-firms-processing-visa-applications

Detectives found that the Russian also withdrew a total of 186 million baht from three bank accounts at various and automatic teller machines (ATMs)
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Goes to show they do track non-domestic card transactions (earlier discussions about such).

Just an FYI he withdrew 186,000,000 THB over the course of July, August, September, October, November = 5 months - roughly 1,328,571 THB (36,209.92$) per day lol.

Last edited: Apr 4, 2024

 

[toums]

It's a good indication you can withdraw almost 5millions in 5months in 3 ATM in Phuket... Would be good to see from where REALLY started the red flag.

I think it's still a HUGE difference between cash out 5millions in cash in few months, and spending your monthly expenses (dinner, bar, shopping, activities..) with a oversea card..

Do you have some real exemple of 'normal' guy challenged by Thailand for remitted income for daily spending with oversea card ?

 

[JackAlabama]

toums said:
It's a good indication you can withdraw almost 5millions in 5months in 3 ATM in Phuket... Would be good to see from where REALLY started the red flag.

I think it's still a HUGE difference between cash out 5millions in cash in few months, and spending your monthly expenses (dinner, bar, shopping, activities..) with a oversea card..

Do you have some real exemple of 'normal' guy challenged by Thailand for remitted income for daily spending with oversea card ?
Click to expand...

idk but its easy to track as your card has your name in it.

wellington said:
Article dropped this morning

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailan...find-bogus-firms-processing-visa-applications


Goes to show they do track non-domestic card transactions (earlier discussions about such).
Click to expand...

I read the article now and it looks like they prob found the accounts first and saw what has been done and the accs where thai accounts.

where in the article is it indicative about such? I don't see non-domestic card use mentioned.


"
The suspect also received cryptocurrencies from non-custodial wallets, said the CSD commander. After the cryptocurrencies were sold, the proceeds were transferred to his bank accounts in Thailand, and the cash was immediately withdrawn.
"

seems like they busted the fake company thing with work visa.

wellington said:
Just an FYI he withdrew 186,000,000 THB over the course of July, August, September, October, November = 5 months - roughly 1,328,571 THB (36,209.92$) per day lol.
Click to expand...

insane amount. Thailand is seemingly richer than many "first world" nations and banks well stuffed with cash but still the average joe makes like 300 usd a month.

Last edited: Apr 5, 2024

 

[toums]

JackAlabama said:
idk but its easy to track as your card has your name in it.
Click to expand...

I am not expert but seem a little weak from my opinion.

First you can have MANY bank accounts outside your citizenship / residency country, with many different debit/credit cards.

Then it's only 1 surname + 1 firstname. No other info (if they collected this). To make conclusion it's belong to you WITHOUT legal investigation.. look not that automatic / easy for them.

But if i am wrong, I would be happy to read the elements.

 

[wellington]

toums said:
It's a good indication you can withdraw almost 5millions in 5months in 3 ATM in Phuket... Would be good to see from where REALLY started the red flag.

I think it's still a HUGE difference between cash out 5millions in cash in few months, and spending your monthly expenses (dinner, bar, shopping, activities..) with a oversea card..

Do you have some real exemple of 'normal' guy challenged by Thailand for remitted income for daily spending with oversea card ?
Click to expand...

Up until Covid you could withdraw 300,000 THB in one transaction at specific ATMs

They disappeared very quickly though (just as quick as they arrived)

Now days it's 20-30k a withdrawal

Worse you now have to f**k around if you wish to deposit - Thai ID card or mobile number or sit in the branch for 25 minutes waiting for all the old farts to deal with their s**t before you get seen.

I think the one saving grace for Thailand is that it is a tourist destination so there is outsized ATM limits otherwise it would be like Europe with something like a 200-500 euro per transaction limit.

With the fees that would add up massively for tourists

 

[JackAlabama]

toums said:
I am not expert but seem a little weak from my opinion.
Click to expand...

yes, its obvious 😉.

toums said:
First you can have MANY bank accounts outside your citizenship / residency country, with many different debit/credit cards.
Click to expand...

name in the card.

toums said:
Then it's only 1 surname + 1 firstname. No other info (if they collected this). To make conclusion it's belong to you WITHOUT legal investigation.. look not that automatic / easy for them.

But if i am wrong, I would be happy to read the elements.
Click to expand...

as your name is in the visa system as well, its easy plus cams everywhere. Legal investigations work differently in such places.
Its not a good route to take nowhere really, there are better ways to achieve it.

 

[toums]

JackAlabama said:
yes, its obvious 😉.

name in the card.

as your name is in the visa system as well, its easy plus cams everywhere. Legal investigations work differently in such places.
Its not a good route to take nowhere really, there are better ways to achieve it.
Click to expand...

I was not talking about 'crazy' withdrawals in a short term in 1 or few ATMs.
I was talking about same situation for 'remitted' money in Thailand if you are using several oversea card for your daily spending, like as I said previously (dinner, bar, grocery, hopping, activities..).

Is any (or which %) of 'legal' foreigner in Thailand (elite, investor visa etc..) already challenged by Thailand authority for that? (i am not talking about scam or criminal profile).

wellington said:
Up until Covid you could withdraw 300,000 THB in one transaction at specific ATMs

They disappeared very quickly though (just as quick as they arrived)

Now days it's 20-30k a withdrawal

Worse you now have to f**k around if you wish to deposit - Thai ID card or mobile number or sit in the branch for 25 minutes waiting for all the old farts to deal with their s**t before you get seen.

I think the one saving grace for Thailand is that it is a tourist destination so there is outsized ATM limits otherwise it would be like Europe with something like a 200-500 euro per transaction limit.

With the fees that would add up massively for tourists
Click to expand...

If you don't mind to give your feedback/experiences about some situations-examples in Thailand as you seem to be VERY well there.
If you prefer I make a new thread for this, just let me know. Otherwise :


a) Regarding the visa if you want to have the tax residency +180days there

If you are under 50, and no job/not working in Thailand, I saw the 2 most relevants visa should be Elite or Investor.

I know Elite (5years) increased this year from 600K to 900K baht so let's say a cost of less than 5K€ a year. Should be quite easy/fast to get and no need all re-entry visa every time you go out the kingdom.

Second choice is to invest 10M. Baht (250K€), can be mix real estate and saving account for example. You don't ”˜loose' the 900K of the elite but seem more complicated and long to get it and saving account seem to propose extremely low interest yield too..

Do you have personal advices or experiences for both of them, or any alternative ?



b) Regarding the tax on the ”˜remitted' money in Thailand and how it's considered.

If I understood well, TILL you are not tax resident in Thailand (example : you start to live there for 6months+ from 2025, it's mean anything you earn until 31/12/2024 and remit in Thailand in tax free as you were not tax resident there. Correct?) Same if you buy real estate there BEFORE being tax resident there ?

Now, how it's concretely working if you already have ”˜big' amount of FIAT (and % in stable coins too) outside Thailand, or in any exchange / broker outside Thailand ?) BEFORE being resident there.

I understood it's tax free as you own it before to be resident even if you remit there, BUT is it working ONLY for money ALREADY in your oversea banks accounts?

OR if you have fiat on IB for example, give you interests, same on some crypto exchanges (kraken / binance) or even your stocks on IB can be remitted for free in Thailand if you do something like this :

1) Fiat in the exchanges / brokers -> oversea bank accounts -> Thai bank account

2)Stable coin -> fiat on an exchange -> oversea bank accounts -> Thai bank account

3)If you sell your stocks on IB (you use the value of your portfolio the day you are tax resident in Thailand, for the calculation?) > oversea bank accounts -> Thai bank account

Sorry for all these different exemples, I am just trying to understand all the way and possibilities and how it will be treated in Thailand if you remit any on this in a thai bank account or by paying expensive stuffs there (real estate, cars etc..)

Last edited: Apr 6, 2024

 

[JackAlabama]

toums said:
I was not talking about 'crazy' withdrawals in a short term in 1 or few ATMs.
I was talking about same situation for 'remitted' money in Thailand if you are using several oversea card for your daily spending, like as I said previously (dinner, bar, grocery, hopping, activities..).

Is any (or which %) of 'legal' foreigner in Thailand (elite, investor visa etc..) already challenged by Thailand authority for that? (i am not talking about scam or criminal profile).



If you don't mind to give your feedback/experiences about some situations-examples in Thailand as you seem to be VERY well there.
If you prefer I make a new thread for this, just let me know. Otherwise :


a) Regarding the visa if you want to have the tax residency +180days there

If you are under 50, and no job/not working in Thailand, I saw the 2 most relevants visa should be Elite or Investor.

I know Elite (5years) increased this year from 600K to 900K baht so let's say a cost of less than 5K€ a year. Should be quite easy/fast to get and no need all re-entry visa every time you go out the kingdom.

Second choice is to invest 10M. Baht (250K€), can be mix real estate and saving account for example. You don't ”˜loose' the 900K of the elite but seem more complicated and long to get it and saving account seem to propose extremely low interest yield too..

Do you have personal advices or experiences for both of them, or any alternative ?



b) Regarding the tax on the ”˜remitted' money in Thailand and how it's considered.

If I understood well, TILL you are not tax resident in Thailand (example : you start to live there for 6months+ from 2025, it's mean anything you earn until 31/12/2024 and remit in Thailand in tax free as you were not tax resident there. Correct?) Same if you buy real estate there BEFORE being tax resident there ?

Now, how it's concretely working if you already have ”˜big' amount of FIAT (and % in stable coins too) outside Thailand, or in any exchange / broker outside Thailand ?) BEFORE being resident there.

I understood it's tax free as you own it before to be resident even if you remit there, BUT is it working ONLY for money ALREADY in your oversea banks accounts?

OR if you have fiat on IB for example, give you interests, same on some crypto exchanges (kraken / binance) or even your stocks on IB can be remitted for free in Thailand if you do something like this :

1) Fiat in the exchanges / brokers -> oversea bank accounts -> Thai bank account

2)Stable coin -> fiat on an exchange -> oversea bank accounts -> Thai bank account

3)If you sell your stocks on IB (you use the value of your portfolio the day you are tax resident in Thailand, for the calculation?) > oversea bank accounts -> Thai bank account

Sorry for all these different exemples, I am just trying to understand all the way and possibilities and how it will be treated in Thailand if you remit any on this in a thai bank account or by paying expensive stuffs there (real estate, cars etc..)
Click to expand...

you wont find clarity to this there in the whole region (ex Singapore or HK). If not being done intentional, then its culture.

 

[Mercury]

toums said:
If I understood well, TILL you are not tax resident in Thailand (example : you start to live there for 6months+ from 2025, it's mean anything you earn until 31/12/2024 and remit in Thailand in tax free as you were not tax resident there. Correct?) Same if you buy real estate there BEFORE being tax resident there ?
Click to expand...

Any income earned from 01/01/2024 will be taxable when remitted in Thailand in a year you are Tax resident in Thailand (unless exempted: DTA, gift, inheritance, ....).

If you remit money in Thailand to buy say property in a year you are not Thai tax resident then remittance is not taxable.

These are the rules as for now, enforcement is nowhere to be seen.

 

[TheCryptoAnt]

Mercury said:
These are the rules as for now, enforcement is nowhere to be seen.
Click to expand...

The Thailand way for what ive seen.

'He withdrew 186,000,000 THB over the course of July, August, September, October, November = 5 months - roughly 1,328,571 THB (36,209.92$) per day lol.'

how stupid you have to be lmao. This being said, this is an outlier case, and unlikely to be the norm moving forward.

 

[wellington]

Mercury said:
Any income earned from 01/01/2024 will be taxable when remitted in Thailand in a year you are Tax resident in Thailand (unless exempted: DTA, gift, inheritance, ....).

If you remit money in Thailand to buy say property in a year you are not Thai tax resident then remittance is not taxable.

These are the rules as for now, enforcement is nowhere to be seen.
Click to expand...

The key is to pay some tax - it's the Thai way.

 

[toums]

Mercury said:
Any income earned from 01/01/2024 will be taxable when remitted in Thailand in a year you are Tax resident in Thailand (unless exempted: DTA, gift, inheritance, ....).

If you remit money in Thailand to buy say property in a year you are not Thai tax resident then remittance is not taxable.

These are the rules as for now, enforcement is nowhere to be seen.
Click to expand...

ok but for example, you earn money in 2024 but you are not tax resident in Thailand. You move and become tax resident only for 2025. If you bring that money you earned in 2024 in Thailand from 2025+ (when you are tax resident). Is it tax or tax free ?

And for the money and assets you already own before moving in Thailand (as tax resident 180days+) is it also full tax free or not? I got it for the saving/money of some bank accounts oversea you have. But if you have also fiat money in some broker (like IB) or crypto exchange (fiat and stable coin staked for example), or even basically your etfs/stocks (if you sell at some points) ?

I just try to understand if there is difference between having money on oversea bank accounts AND if you own also the money on some brokers & crypto exchange for example (and as well the assets related). How it's counted in that case.

 

[JackAlabama]

wellington said:
The key is to pay some tax - it's the Thai way.
Click to expand...

paying something little is maybe even better for future moves etc to showcase to the oecd gang one being such a good and law abiding obedient citizen.

toums said:
ok but for example, you earn money in 2024 but you are not tax resident in Thailand. You move and become tax resident only for 2025. If you bring that money you earned in 2024 in Thailand from 2025+ (when you are tax resident). Is it tax or tax free ?

And for the money and assets you already own before moving in Thailand (as tax resident 180days+) is it also full tax free or not? I got it for the saving/money of some bank accounts oversea you have. But if you have also fiat money in some broker (like IB) or crypto exchange (fiat and stable coin staked for example), or even basically your etfs/stocks (if you sell at some points) ?

I just try to understand if there is difference between having money on oversea bank accounts AND if you own also the money on some brokers & crypto exchange for example (and as well the assets related). How it's counted in that case.
Click to expand...

its the wrong geographical area to find clarity for what you ask.
If you value peace of mind, singapore it is or HK.

 

[toums]

JackAlabama said:
its the wrong geographical area to find clarity for what you ask.
If you value peace of mind, singapore it is or HK.
Click to expand...

It's not really for my peace of mind, but just to understand at least how it's works. And it seems that there are some experienced individuals in this forum regarding Thailand/SEA, so i'm just asking.

I don't consider SG or HK to live.

 

[JackAlabama]

toums said:
It's not really for my peace of mind, but just to understand at least how it's works. And it seems that there are some experienced individuals in this forum regarding Thailand/SEA, so i'm just asking.

I don't consider SG or HK to live.
Click to expand...

only these 2 have clarity, the rest does not nor will ever be able to provide with such.
Japan also offers clear guidances.

 

[Mercury]

toums said:
ok but for example, you earn money in 2024 but you are not tax resident in Thailand. You move and become tax resident only for 2025. If you bring that money you earned in 2024 in Thailand from 2025+ (when you are tax resident). Is it tax or tax free ?
Click to expand...

This money will be taxable when remitted in Thailand in a year you are TH tax resident unless exempted (DTA, ...).

toums said:
And for the money and assets you already own before moving in Thailand (as tax resident 180days+) is it also full tax free or not? I got it for the saving/money of some bank accounts oversea you have. But if you have also fiat money in some broker (like IB) or crypto exchange (fiat and stable coin staked for example), or even basically your etfs/stocks (if you sell at some points) ?
Click to expand...

If it's money earned prior 01/01/2024 it's not taxable when remitted, else same answer as above.

Tax on foreign-sourced income is triggered on remittance only and if you are tax resident.

 

[toums]

Mercury said:
This money will be taxable when remitted in Thailand in a year you are TH tax resident unless exempted (DTA, ...).


If it's money earned prior 01/01/2024 it's not taxable when remitted, else same answer as above.

Tax on foreign-sourced income is triggered on remittance only and if you are tax resident.
Click to expand...

Some cabinet seems to say opposite, even if its earned before 01.01.2024, anything you bring in Thailand from this date, should be taxed :

" The new interpretation provided in DI. Paw. 161 is likely to significantly impact Thai resident individuals who derive income from employment, business and assets abroad. For example, Mr. A, a Thai tax resident, had income from selling shares in a Singapore company in 2020 and kept the share consideration, including the capital gain in a bank account in Singapore. If Mr. A brings the proceeds from the capital gain into Thailand in 2024, he must include the capital gain from selling Singapore shares as his assessable income and pay personal income tax for the calendar year 2024. Alternatively, if Mr. A transfers the capital gain proceeds to his bank account in Thailand within 2023, the capital gain is still exempt from Thai personal income tax under the current interpretation"

https://www.mazars.co.th/insights/d...thailand-tax-foreign-income-taxable-from-2024

 

[Mercury]

toums said:
Some cabinet seems to say opposite, even if its earned before 01.01.2024, anything you bring in Thailand from this date, should be taxed :
Click to expand...

Rather rely on the Revenue Department official announcements than any law firm interpretation, however if you read further Mazars (as you quote them) they have relayed the 20 Nov RD announcement as well, clearing all foreign-sourced income earned prior 01/01/2024 from tax.

https://www.mazars.co.th/insights/d...venue-department-s-guidance-on-foreign-income

 

[wellington]

Mercury said:
Rather rely on the Revenue Department official announcements than any law firm interpretation, however if you read further Mazars (as you quote them) they have relayed the 20 Nov RD announcement as well, clearing all foreign-sourced income earned prior 01/01/2024 from tax.

https://www.mazars.co.th/insights/d...venue-department-s-guidance-on-foreign-income
Click to expand...

Discussion I had with revenue - funds offshore brought in after date if provide evidence it's not income then it's tax free.

I went at length based on my discussions previously on here (somewhere) - I.e savings

Using stablecoins is an easier way to provide evidence as they would openly show “matured”.

 

[JackAlabama]

toums said:
Some cabinet seems to say opposite, even if its earned before 01.01.2024, anything you bring in Thailand from this date, should be taxed :

" The new interpretation provided in DI. Paw. 161 is likely to significantly impact Thai resident individuals who derive income from employment, business and assets abroad. For example, Mr. A, a Thai tax resident, had income from selling shares in a Singapore company in 2020 and kept the share consideration, including the capital gain in a bank account in Singapore. If Mr. A brings the proceeds from the capital gain into Thailand in 2024, he must include the capital gain from selling Singapore shares as his assessable income and pay personal income tax for the calendar year 2024. Alternatively, if Mr. A transfers the capital gain proceeds to his bank account in Thailand within 2023, the capital gain is still exempt from Thai personal income tax under the current interpretation"

https://www.mazars.co.th/insights/d...thailand-tax-foreign-income-taxable-from-2024
Click to expand...

you see right here what I told you above: Wrong region for clarity.