Where to live in Italy with family? Flat tax regime

[kyler565]

Help me make a list of livable Italian citys that I can visit on this summers family vacation and possibly relocate to. So far my list is

ROME
PALERMO
CAGLIARI

Should I add a city or takeaway any from this list?

Things I consider: Quality of life, Healthcare as well as healthy food, Safty(crime) less woke people and access to good schools (probably private school) as well as cost of living . My thinking is bigger citys above 500,000 people metro would have better schools so I'm not interested in small towns. I will also be visiting Budapest Hungry this trip

We speak English and Spanish fluently no Italian

Last edited: Jan 18, 2024

 

[manukahoney]

North Italy, not Rome and God forbid South.
Some areas around Milan.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

Forget Cagliari.
Palermo is ok for a holiday, not for living.
In Rome check out Parioli.
Florence - not the center, look at villas 10 min from the city up on the hills.
Bologna is a tad smaller than your threshold but is worth a try.
Stay away from Milano if you want to live a decent and reasonably long life. If you like it, consider instead Como and Bergamo.

Learn Italian or life will not be easy. Still better than learning Hungarian.

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[Armani]

Have a look at Turin, one of the nicest cities in the north, it is also big and have good schools/universities
Also Padova is not too bad.

If you look for wealthy, well connected, industrialized cities (but also pretty boring): Bergamo, Brescia, Como.

Rome nowadays is worse than Naples in terms of chaos, traffic and crime.
If you're american you'll feel a big cultural shock there.

If you have enough money Florence offers a great quality of life, there are many english/american expats and schools, but its best if you live in the outskirts.

Tuscany isn't good for work and business, people there live in the past and have a rentier mindset.

Italian language is necessary, nobody speaks fluent english, not even spanish there.

I'll personally choose Budapest, way more vibrant that many Italian cities.

Last edited: Jan 18, 2024

 

[MarkusCostigan]

JohnnyDoe said:
and Bergamo.
Click to expand...

...ehi Johnny all ok?

Have you been to Bergamo recently?

 

[JohnnyDoe]

MarkusCostigan said:
...ehi Johnny all ok?

Have you been to Bergamo recently?
Click to expand...

Upper part, a few years ago though. The lower part is not nice.

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[kyler565]

JohnnyDoe said:
Forget Cagliari.
Palermo is ok for a holiday, not for living.
In Rome check out Parioli.
Florence - not the center, look at villas 10 min from the city up on the hills.
Bologna is a tad smaller than your threshold but is worth a try.
Stay away from Milano if you want to live a decent and reasonably long life. If you like it, consider instead Como and Bergamo.

Learn Italian or life will not be easy. Still better than learning Hungarian.
Click to expand...

Why do you say stay away from Milan if I want to live a long life. Is this because of crime? And to everyone saying avoid the south is this because of the Italian mafia?

 

[JohnnyDoe]

kyler565 said:
Why do you say stay away from Milan if I want to live a long life. Is this because of crime?
Click to expand...

That, plus pollution and the crazy people.

kyler565 said:
And to everyone saying avoid the south is this because of the Italian mafia?
Click to expand...

You just can't survive the south if you are a foreigner. Take our word for it, it's not so easy to explain. The mafia is the least of the problems.

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[banafinfodafuggiano]

Alright, I lived in Italy and Spain for some time so I can answer this question.

Avoid: everything below Rome all the way to Sicily, unless you go there for a quick holiday.
Sicily is safe, but nothing works there, you need a car all the times. It's cheap and the weather is great.

Milan is a hole.
Turin is boring.
Florence is nice.
San Marino/Rimini is great if you can immigrate there, along with the Tax benefits. Great Piedine there.

Rome is great, you will fork a lot of money for rent, and you need a car to drive. Best area to live in Rome is around the Vatican for apartments, and for houses towards Baldo degli Ubaldi.
Rome housing is expensive. This is why I'd go to Rimini area if I had to do it again.


To be honest, I'd never live in Italy again, nothing works there. The only good thing is the Food and family. I don't really like getting stuck in Traffic or at the Post office for 1 hour.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

banafinfodafuggiano said:
To be honest, I'd never live in Italy again, nothing works there.
Click to expand...

Actually, everything works perfectly if you know how to make it work. For doing which you must be Italian.

banafinfodafuggiano said:
The only good thing is the Food and family.
Click to expand...

And nature, art, culture, healthcare”¦ If you know how to do it, also business, taxes and justice rof/%

banafinfodafuggiano said:
I don't really like getting stuck in Traffic or at the Post office for 1 hour.
Click to expand...

That's why you should live outside the city and delegate the mundane tasks. Nobody likes to spend even one minute at the post office.

banafinfodafuggiano said:
This is why I'd go to Rimini area if I had to do it again.
Click to expand...

I'm not updated on Rimini and I'm not old enough to have enjoyed it in its primes. It used to be the Mecca for summer dating, but depressing in winter. Anyway if you like Rimini you should also like Versilia (Forte dei Marmi, Viareggio etc.), which is more refined (and expensive).

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[marioIT]

JohnnyDoe said:
Actually, everything works perfectly if you know how to make it work. For doing which you must be Italian.
And nature, art, culture, healthcare”¦ If you know how to do it, also business, taxes and justice rof/%
Click to expand...

that sums it up pretty much.
there's the old saying: "when in Rome..."
The only issues to me in Rome are taxes down the drain, justice and crime. Could live there and enjoy it, with enough money obv and a decent tax discount wouldn't eve notice those...
Yeah I know it's dirty, there are migrants/homeless, holes, shitty sidewalks...
I could live there in my own bubble and enjoy the best of it.
It has a lot to offer if you have the money for it...
But the fact that you have to hide your possession or you get robbed, it's not how I like to live. And I'm not even a showoff guy.
Got rich friends there that got robbed multiple times.
You can't rely on justice. You can't rely on police.
Milan is even worse.
Also if cleanliness is important... then even Bucharest is MUCH better than Rome on a random day.

~~~
@kyler565 asked about "wokeism": Bologna is historically a left wing/very progressive city.
It has the oldest university of the western world.
It was ruled for nearly 50 years by the Italian Communist Party... its universities even now are woke factories.
There are small exceptions like engineering (because of motor valley), anything else is full left-wing.
It's the wokest area of all italy.
They still do Festa de l'Unità each year.
It's not like USA with the whole gender thing in your face all day. It's more about socialism... the state should (they mean MUST) give me a job, a home, etc, but yeah it's slowly getting there with the whole enforced inclusion, diversity stuff.
They are nice cities to visit and even live if you find a nice area, since there's a big industrial district and there's money... but...

but if the hammer and sickle, antifa, pride, and certain young individuals piss you off, and fear your children may be turned into them... then avoid it.
There are a lot there cause it's a students city. You'll see a lot of them there. And every weekend or every current thing, there's an excuse for them to show off...

bologna pride

note that this is not a political post. just showing the state of things there.

Last edited: Jan 21, 2024

 

[JohnnyDoe]

marioIT said:
that sums it up pretty much.
there's the old saying: "when in Rome..."
The only issues to me in Rome are taxes down the drain, justice and crime. Could live there and enjoy it, with enough money obv and a decent tax discount wouldn't eve notice those...
Yeah I know it's dirty, there are migrants/homeless, holes, shitty sidewalks...
I could live there in my own bubble and enjoy the best of it.
It has a lot to offer if you have the money for it...
But the fact that you have to hide your possession or you get robbed, it's not how I like to live. And I'm not even a showoff guy.
Got rich friends there that got robbed multiple times.
You can't rely on justice. You can't rely on police.
Milan is even worse.
Also if cleanliness is important... then even Bucharest is MUCH better than Rome on a random day.

~~~
@kyler565 asked about "wokeism": Bologna is historically a left wing/very progressive city.
It has the oldest university of the western world.
It was ruled for nearly 50 years by the Italian Communist Party... its universities even now are woke factories.
There are small exceptions like engineering (because of motor valley), anything else is full left-wing.
It's the wokest area of all italy.
They still do Festa de l'Unità each year.
It's not like USA with the whole gender thing in your face all day. It's more about socialism... the state should (they mean MUST) give me a job, a home, etc, but yeah it's slowly getting there with the whole enforced inclusion, diversity stuff.
They are nice cities to visit and even live if you find a nice area, since there's a big industrial district and there's money... but...

but if the hammer and sickle, antifa, pride, and certain young individuals piss you off, and fear your children may be turned into them... then avoid it.
There are a lot there cause it's a students city. You'll see a lot of them there. And every weekend or every current thing, there's an excuse for them to show off...

bologna pride

note that this is not a political post. just showing the state of things there.
Click to expand...

It just adds to the folklore. And you can eat good sausages at the festa dell'unità smi(&%
You can't take Italy seriously, it's all a big sceneggiata (comedy).

As for justice, there are so many ways to fix things. For example, did you ever notice how easy it is to enter a court building and access files? rof/%

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[Konstanz]

I have been to Italy multiple times. What can I say. Italy does not seem to be an international place. Yes, you will need Italian to live in Italy.
It's not like places as Luxembourg, Switzerland were so many expats live and speak various languages.

 

[TheCryptoAnt]

Italian switzerland best Italy imo

marioIT said:

bologna pride

note that this is not a political post. just showing the state of things there.
Click to expand...

why can I smell this pictures through a screen

Last edited: Jan 21, 2024

 

[sriracha]

Italy is a country that is on a horrible path to wokeness and economic ruin, but if you must go”¦

I am supposing that you won't have to generate income in Italy, because that would mean that you have a fiscal death wish.

Big cities are either shitholes (in the south) or shitholes + woke (in the north).

Those region in red in the map above have typical parasitical left mentality that they manifest in different ways (rudeness in Latium, arrogance in Tuscany and Umbria, minority-majority in Emilia Romagna, sloppiness in Liguria) and are best avoided.

The south is not woke but if you are not able to create a network of decent people around you (takes money or status), your children will grow up to be hooligans and your friends will be unbearably low class.

You're left with Abruzzo, Marche and the north.

A word to the wise: Italy is a very competitive, capitalistic and corrupt country. If you want to go beyond bar friends, you will have to play the game, and it's not pretty.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

sriracha said:
Italy is a country that is on a horrible path to wokeness and economic ruin
Click to expand...

Since 1861

sriracha said:
I am supposing that you won't have to generate income in Italy, because that would mean that you have a fiscal death wish.
Click to expand...

OP is smart enough not to consider Italy for business. He is interested in the flat tax.

sriracha said:
Big cities are either shitholes (in the south) or shitholes + woke (in the north).
Click to expand...

Definitely. But they can be good for entertainment.

sriracha said:
Those region in red in the map above have typical parasitical left mentality that they manifest in different ways (rudeness in Latium, arrogance in Tuscany and Umbria, minority-majority in Emilia Romagna, sloppiness in Liguria) and are best avoided.
Click to expand...

It's folklore, you should not take it seriously.

sriracha said:
The south is not woke but if you are not able to create a network of decent people around you (takes money or status), your children will grow up to be hooligans and your friends will be unbearably low class.
Click to expand...

This more or less everywhere.

sriracha said:
You're left with Abruzzo, Marche
Click to expand...

Those regions even Italians don't know where they are rof/%

sriracha said:
and the north.
Click to expand...

In Veneto you must learn how to swear, for common profanities are not good enough and will not allow to achieve integration.
In Trentino you need to learn German.
Friuli is the bad version of Slovenia.
Valle d'Aosta is good for skiing.
Pedemont and Lombardy have already been discussed.

sriracha said:
A word to the wise: Italy is a very competitive, capitalistic and corrupt country. If you want to go beyond bar friends, you will have to play the game, and it's not pretty.
Click to expand...

Just pretend to be a tourist and you will enjoy it.

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[jkl197]

according to official statistics on quality of life (relatively good healthcare, low crime, peaceful towns, green areas, not too much traffic, decent public services) you should look into cities like Trento, Verona, Udine. They are not micro cities, but not as big as you wish.

However everything is very subjective and all the previous comments gave you very good advice on how critical is to learn the local language and to have an open mind and adaptability to embrace the bad parts of the local culture which you will discover in the long term.
Absolutely avoid Milan, surely is the top place for business, but the level of crime and wokeness is insane.
Another possible option could be Ticino (Switzerland) the flat tax will be more expensive, about 250k instead of 100k, and the cost of living is much higher, but you get the highest quality of life.
If you children then a big factor is the school / university you wish they attend. Too many variables only you can know. Do your research and go visit the cities on holiday.
Good luck

 

[crassus54]

JohnnyDoe said:
You just can't survive the south if you are a foreigner. Take our word for it, it's not so easy to explain. The mafia is the least of the problems.
Click to expand...

You are right, I am here right now and it is what you might expect.

Perhaps if I spent time and learned fluent Italian and Sicilian (More of a language than a dialect) I would be able to continue without getting ripped off every 5 seconds.

 

[JoeyMess]

JohnnyDoe said:
That, plus pollution and the crazy people.

You just can't survive the south if you are a foreigner. Take our word for it, it's not so easy to explain. The mafia is the least of the problems.
Click to expand...

True. I am from italy (north italy) and I can tell you the south is like a different state. Really beautiful, nice for vacation but absolutely not a place to live.

 

[TheCryptoAnt]

JohnnyDoe said:
This more or less everywhere.
Click to expand...

Many such cases