UAE + Labuan [Fallout Thailand]

[wellington]

With Thailand's recent pirate theft announcement we're upping sticks. Was intending to move the company (BVI) to Labuan anyway and fire all non Global South Staff, install a management team and change to a shareholder role, however the recent events are forcing more drastic actions, that ultimately will mean Thailand will loose big in taxation revenues and GDP from myself and many like myself that bought into their Elite Visa B/S.

What i want.

Move the family (myself (UK), wife (asian), 3 kids (asian/UK) to Dubai + Cat + (Nannies if possible but not essential for them).

I have Zero interest in establishing a company in UAE, preferring to do via Labuan as the company transitions and its access to Global South/BRICS and West servicing.

Company is

:- AI [Intel, Fintech, Counter Intel, Analytics, Data].
:- Has internal treasury.


Whats the best route to go about this ?

Our intention is to spend less than 180 days in Thailand annually, the rest in Dubai, minus periods in Swiss (where i pay wealth tax).

We intend to move funds from outside of Thailand into Thailand during that period so as to not get fucked by the 35% tax that would f**k us every day to Sunday if we are tax resident under this newly enforced law.

Funds myself after company would be annual or every five years *current* dividends as a shareholder.

Ideally we'd want to get a property in Dubai (non-rented hopefully) possibly a residence though we won't spend more than 5 months there annually).

Best visa's / process, property, agents, etc... shill your guys.

 

[Martin Everson]

A straight forward cheap route to Dubai without setting up any entity would be to just go for the 2y investor residency visa and purchase a property for over AED 750k (approx 191k EURO).

You can apply for visa yourself below its straight forward:

https://dubailand.gov.ae/en/eservices/request-for-investor-visa/#/
Or if you got funds for 10y Golden Visa AED 2m (approx 510k EUR):

https://dubailand.gov.ae/en/eservices/request-for-golden-visa-investor/#/
I would then just keep the BVI setup and pay the 9% tax in Dubai in worst case. Otherwise ensure management, control and operations is elsewhere outside the UAE and you just receive dividends tax free.

Then just buy a small property via a credible estate agent like BetterHomes to meet the investment requirement.

As you got a family not sure what size of property you would accept and whether kids are young enough to share rooms. The below is a 3 bed town house for around 250k.

https://www.bhomes.com/en/property/bhm-s-567793
Good luck anyway.

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[wellington]

Martin Everson said:
A straight forward cheap route to Dubai without setting up any entity would be to just go for the 2y investor residency visa and purchase a property for over AED 750k (approx 191k EURO).

You can apply for visa yourself below its straight forward:

https://dubailand.gov.ae/en/eservices/request-for-investor-visa/#/
Or if you got funds for 10y Golden Visa AED 2m (approx 510k EUR):

https://dubailand.gov.ae/en/eservices/request-for-golden-visa-investor/#/
I would then just keep the BVI setup and pay the 9% tax in Dubai in worst case. Otherwise ensure management, control and operations is elsewhere outside the UAE and you just receive dividends tax free.

Then just buy a small property via a credible estate agent like BetterHomes to meet the investment requirement.

As you got a family not sure what size of property you would accept and whether kids are young enough to share rooms. The below is a 3 bed town house for around 250k.

https://www.bhomes.com/en/property/bhm-s-567793
Good luck anyway.
Click to expand...

Thanks Martin, was coming up at a loss trying to find straightforward answers as some were saying 10m AED, others 2m AED.

Much appreciated, ideally i need to be 'distanced from the company either way' due to the polarised world and technology restrictions increasingly pushed into the market, not sure how that would impact, but 9% is better than 35% on world wide income...

Note Qatar (Doha) or even Abu Dhabi would also be open to interest on if any information.

Last edited: Sep 19, 2023

 

[churumbelo]

wellington said:
Thanks Martin, was coming up at a loss trying to find straightforward answers as some were saying 10m AED, others 2m AED.

Much appreciated, ideally i need to be 'distanced from the company either way' due to the polarised world and technology restrictions increasingly pushed into the market, not sure how that would impact, but 9% is better than 35% on world wide income...

Note Qatar (Doha) or even Abu Dhabi would also be open to interest on if any information.
Click to expand...

It is good that you are preparing to leave and have a plan, I would do the same in your situation. Plan B, C, D... But we aren't still sure that they will tax worldwide income. Now it seems it is based on remittance. Still, these changes and uncertainty aren't good for money and investrments. They are driving people away. But you should already know how Thailand works and how they do things. Let's see what happens after all.

 

[wellington]

churumbelo said:
It is good that you are preparing to leave and have a plan, I would do the same in your situation. Plan B, C, D... But we aren't still sure that they will tax worldwide income. Now it seems it is based on remittance. Still, this changes and uncertainty aren't good for money and investrments. They are driving people away. But you should already know how Thailand works and how they do things. Let's see what happens after all.
Click to expand...

I think the Central Bank of Thailand started laying into the Government yesterday.

One thing not considered is Thailand is fortunate that it has all this money flowing in, they've not found themselves in a position looking for $ like everyone else, and starting trade with domestic currencies whipping up a frenzy by gold bugs thinking there's going to be a BRICS backed currency because countries are opting to not use the $ when in fact its they need all the $ they can obtain to pay their EURODOLLAR debt down, so pushing domestic currencies so as to have $ catches by the CB and not leave their control.

Idiotic is obvious, if they did world-wide income it would be a ghost town, as it is they will retain small spenders (expats), some OAP's living of state pensions, but likely loose private pension OAP's, big spenders, and 30-45 yr olds.

I'd hazard a guess the 15 billion $ they are giving to Thai's in the form of 10,000 THB socialistic populistic bribes and were hoping to pay off with this new tax will end up costing them 150 billion $ when all said and done.

 

[Martin Everson]

wellington said:
when in fact its they need all the $ they can obtain to pay their EURODOLLAR debt down, so pushing domestic currencies so as to have $ catches by the CB and not leave their control.
Click to expand...

True to an extent but Thailand has to think long term now. And long term trading in local currencies and issuing local currency debt financing and removing foreign currency burden is the correct way to go.

Over time a global uniformed approach to bypassing the dollar will make for a weaker US dollar which will make any dollar debt easier to pay down when domestic currencies appreciate against the dollar.

Interesting blog below.

https://www.bound.co/blog/weak-us-dollar-good-emerging-markets

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[JackAlabama]

Martin Everson said:
True to an extent but Thailand has to think long term now. And long term trading in local currencies and issuing local currency debt financing and removing foreign currency burden is the correct way to go.

Over time a global uniformed approach to bypassing the dollar will make for a weaker US dollar which will make any dollar debt easier to pay down when domestic currencies appreciate against the dollar.

Interesting blog below.

https://www.bound.co/blog/weak-us-dollar-good-emerging-markets
Click to expand...

Yeah indeed.
Just from observing the overall state of infrastructure etc there which lets one come to the conclusion resources cannot be deployed optimally there (to put this nicely), they would fare better with indirect taxes like hiking vat, extra vat on indulgence goods, and hiking long term visa fees.

 

[wellington]

Demographic wise, it was looking like 10-15 good years left (Buddhist Thai's increasingly don't have children, muslim Thai's do...).

Then it would be in quick decline... the New Gov seem insistent on speeding that process up by adopting a socialist program.

Sure there's poverty in Thailand, but it's like 3-5% actually pay taxes.. and they do earn enough... one Thai i know she is 50+ no formal education etc, was cleaning 5 pools, organising painting for properties and odd jobs, picking up about 20-30k a month (THB) - didn't pay tax, gambled the money and sent some home to her son that does the same etc...

This is quite common, i'd hazard 75% of Thai's i come into contact in every day interactions don't pay tax...

There's an allowance (150k) but a lot of them are earning 20-40,000 THB on the side... especially the ones with rubber farms etc, 10 Rai is roughly 30-50,000 THB a month income during the months of cultivation, Palm oil much higher due to the demand.

You'll find they claim poverty then gambling etc.

That's why these new changes irk me, as I am a productive party of the country (spending into the Clean economy).

And have Elite (so donated funds basically) and now they are fucking with tax after advertising or allowing the idea of tax free etc as long as waiting a year.

 

[JackAlabama]

wellington said:
Demographic wise, it was looking like 10-15 good years left (Buddhist Thai's increasingly don't have children, muslim Thai's do...).

Then it would be in quick decline... the New Gov seem insistent on speeding that process up by adopting a socialist program.

Sure there's poverty in Thailand, but it's like 3-5% actually pay taxes.. and they do earn enough... one Thai i know she is 50+ no formal education etc, was cleaning 5 pools, organising painting for properties and odd jobs, picking up about 20-30k a month (THB) - didn't pay tax, gambled the money and sent some home to her son that does the same etc...

This is quite common, i'd hazard 75% of Thai's i come into contact in every day interactions don't pay tax...

There's an allowance (150k) but a lot of them are earning 20-40,000 THB on the side... especially the ones with rubber farms etc, 10 Rai is roughly 30-50,000 THB a month income during the months of cultivation, Palm oil much higher due to the demand.

You'll find they claim poverty then gambling etc.

That's why these new changes irk me, as I am a productive party of the country (spending into the Clean economy).

And have Elite (so donated funds basically) and now they are f*****g with tax after advertising or allowing the idea of tax free etc as long as waiting a year.
Click to expand...

Well yeah agreed.
With Elite which is basically all tax paid upfront, the least one would expect is to be free of this nonsense hassle of filing and other things.

 

[wellington]

Elite has steadily declined, i gradually came to the conclusion, its a good way to settle a long-term visa without having to deal with paperwork.

The one plus is not having to leave the country annually (new stamp done at immigration) that plus is now gone.

When i bought into it (previously investor visa) it was sold as 'tax free' around the 1yr maturing system, and in addition no paperwork, they'd coordinate everything with immigration etc.

Last year they arranged that, this year I was informed we just turn up when we are ready - the arrangement service is now gone.

In addition you have to do a 90 day report, previously i'd just send someone to do it, now you physically need to do it or do it online (doesn't work for me online, tried once and in the end had to go to the main immigration).

Don't use the 'limo service' besides the vehicles are lower quality than what i drive usually... and at least then I am in charge of it on the road rather than being in a potential coffin delivery service.

So for me, Elite is dead, mine expires sometime in 2026-27 and was considering renewing but wait and see, glad i did...

On the tax front, I've been informed another loop hole, i can 'gift' my wife / children up-to 20m THB a year tax free, I am unaware whether that is 'each' and/or in what format that occurs, i.e

:- Offshore remittance into an account in their name.
:- Offshore Stablecoin remittance into their name (personal onshore account)
:- Gold and it's value in THB
:- Corporate Shares
:- Shells

etc still a few questions on that...

I generally have a house-hold budget (for maintenance, staffing etc) and the Wife pays tax on that (25%) but manages to reduce it due to all the deductions she can make (children, parents, insurances, etc) to around 12% - we freely paid that tax previously... But being informed of this 20m THB it may be case of utilising that, rather than paying taxes remitting savings...

Either-way we've become rather complacent we used to have to travel constantly for work/travel, but since Covid we've just grown stronger roots lol and the idea of getting a plane doesn't make sense unless its private (horrifying the air travel since covid reading online - people being weighed now etc).

 

[JackAlabama]

wellington said:
With Thailand's recent pirate theft announcement we're upping sticks. Was intending to move the company (BVI) to Labuan anyway and fire all non Global South Staff, install a management team and change to a shareholder role, however the recent events are forcing more drastic actions, that ultimately will mean Thailand will loose big in taxation revenues and GDP from myself and many like myself that bought into their Elite Visa B/S.

What i want.

Move the family (myself (UK), wife (asian), 3 kids (asian/UK) to Dubai + Cat + (Nannies if possible but not essential for them).

I have Zero interest in establishing a company in UAE, preferring to do via Labuan as the company transitions and its access to Global South/BRICS and West servicing.

Company is

:- AI [Intel, Fintech, Counter Intel, Analytics, Data].
:- Has internal treasury.


Whats the best route to go about this ?

Our intention is to spend less than 180 days in Thailand annually, the rest in Dubai, minus periods in Swiss (where i pay wealth tax).

We intend to move funds from outside of Thailand into Thailand during that period so as to not get fucked by the 35% tax that would f**k us every day to Sunday if we are tax resident under this newly enforced law.

Funds myself after company would be annual or every five years *current* dividends as a shareholder.

Ideally we'd want to get a property in Dubai (non-rented hopefully) possibly a residence though we won't spend more than 5 months there annually).

Best visa's / process, property, agents, etc... shill your guys.
Click to expand...

did you shift your company to Labuan yet?
Recently I am also looking into this.

 

[wellington]

JackAlabama said:
did you shift your company to Labuan yet?
Recently I am also looking into this.
Click to expand...

No, not yet.

Currently looking at Panama, but don't have to do anything till June so not making a rash decision.

Reason is our accounting costs also ballooned under the BVI submission requirement, and Thai side spoke with Revenue and said BAU.

 

[JackAlabama]

wellington said:
No, not yet.
Click to expand...

Ok Ill see. What baffles me is the low amount of general coverage of it. Leads me to think its either its flying completely under the radar or it is a horrible solution in practice.

wellington said:
Currently looking at Panama, but don't have to do anything till June so not making a rash decision.

Reason is our accounting costs also ballooned under the BVI submission requirement, and Thai side spoke with Revenue and said BAU.
Click to expand...

Im a Panama oldie (like 6y +), its kinda ok, but banking is outright horrible (but it can be addressed by some usual means).
Best is not needing banking there at all or only marginally.
I use Panama as a holding vehicle mainly.

The regulation increased only slightly during this time and is still ok, bs level still well and agreeable, nowhere what I have experienced elsewhere recently and I feel adequately and timely informed in case of changes, gov seems chill too despite the oecd fatf gang pounding them heavily and over a long time.

 

[EliasIT]

Can you still get tax benefits from living in Thailand and have a Labuan company?

Toggle signature
If money is your hope for independence you will never have it. The only real security that a man will have in this world is a reserve of knowledge, experience, and ability!
My personal favorite thread posted in the Mentor Group. Group of investment companies to avoid licensing.

 

[JackAlabama]

EliasIT said:
Can you still get tax benefits from living in Thailand and have a Labuan company?
Click to expand...

Not really. Its the same you can achieve by whatever other company setup with local management.
But if one wants to live in Malaysia, its worth a look.

 

[jafo]

JackAlabama said:
Im a Panama oldie (like 6y +)
Click to expand...

@JackAlabama

I need a reliable crypto service with minimal KYC in Panama that can cash out (give out Balboa ...well, US dollars) to a friend there. Nothing major. It's about US $200 per month. It has to be a regular service open to the public. My friend has ID and everything else. He is 100% Panamanian. Cédula 8 and all.

Do you know of such a service?

Thanks in advance!

 

[wellington]

EliasIT said:
Can you still get tax benefits from living in Thailand and have a Labuan company?
Click to expand...

Benefit of Thailand is the company isn't brought onshore because you reside in the country, it's only brought onshore if it's main business is operating from Thailand and/or it's accessing the Thai markets, the substance requirement elsewhere is 'normally' not required in Thailand or enforced, so it became a haven for people looking to live life without the burden of establishing all these sorts of structures etc discussed on here in-depth, i.e a simple process.

Unfortunately outside of that, you used to be able to defer salary / dividends till the next tax year and remit free, now it's table as 'income' at 'thai income rates'.

jafo said:
@JackAlabama

I need a reliable crypto service with minimal KYC in Panama that can cash out (give out Balboa ...well, US dollars) to a friend there. Nothing major. It's about US $200 per month. It has to be a regular service open to the public. My friend has ID and everything else. He is 100% Panamanian. Cédula 8 and all.

Do you know of such a service?

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

why not use Buy and Sell Bitcoin at NoOnes

 

[jafo]

wellington said:
Benefit of Thailand is the company isn't brought onshore because you reside in the country, it's only brought onshore if it's main business is operating from Thailand and/or it's accessing the Thai markets, the substance requirement elsewhere is 'normally' not required in Thailand or enforced, so it became a haven for people looking to live life without the burden of establishing all these sorts of structures etc discussed on here in-depth, i.e a simple process.

Unfortunately outside of that, you used to be able to defer salary / dividends till the next tax year and remit free, now it's table as 'income' at 'thai income rates'.


why not use Buy and Sell Bitcoin at NoOnes
Click to expand...

I do, but he needs to cash out.

Note: He is a fisherman. He is NOT tech-savvy or crypto-savvy! When it comes to fish, he is a genius. Anything else, he's lost. He's a simple guy!

 

[JackAlabama]

wellington said:
Benefit of Thailand is the company isn't brought onshore because you reside in the country, it's only brought onshore if it's main business is operating from Thailand and/or it's accessing the Thai markets, the substance requirement elsewhere is 'normally' not required in Thailand or enforced, so it became a haven for people looking to live life without the burden of establishing all these sorts of structures etc discussed on here in-depth, i.e a simple process.

Unfortunately outside of that, you used to be able to defer salary / dividends till the next tax year and remit free, now it's table as 'income' at 'thai income rates'.
Click to expand...

wellington said:
why not use Buy and Sell Bitcoin at NoOnes
Click to expand...

yes this, or from some other platform like noones. Give the trader the bank account of your friend once you have trust established.

Or tell them to use a btc atm if they live in the ciudad for example should be easy. https://coinatmradar.com/country/165/bitcoin-atm-panama/
for 200 maybe good old western union and the likes could be worth a look too, e.g. I have a bank account where I can simply WU from it (including myself).