Best way to protect company owned assets

[Paul Tudor Jones]

wellington said:
Gold has lost 4% against spending power year on year since 2013, S&P500 is flat, Nasdaq is 6% PA (+), Crypto is exponentially more (tech = Blockchain, AI, Green etc) will provide the productivity requirement that is counter to the decline in productivity caused by demographics.
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Can you just stop posting fake stats and fake numbers?

Gold is up around 18% in Dollar terms since 2013, which is not amazing but not -4%.
SPY is not flat, it's up 250% since 2013.
Nasdsaq is up 40% since the beginning of this year, not 6%.
Crypto is still far from the peak and deep in red.

wellington said:
debt re-folding within the 3 yr financial cycles
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LOL

wellington said:
You've got them in the bank, when the central bank of Germany is openly insolvent?
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The central bank of Germany is openly insolvent 😀

OK, now I'm sure you are living in a fake reality. Make sure to take your meds in the morning so you get back to our reality.

 

[Mister Sir]

JohnnyDoe said:
No bank is safe. Crypto, cash and gold are.
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Actually all 4 are unsafe 🙁....

1) Gold - a) remember when aluminum cost more than gold at one time!!!
b) remember when the weight of pepper cost more than gold!

2) Fiat Cash- so many incidences to mention lol.... From devaluation to taking away high denomination bills from the currency.

3) Crypto- so many red herrings

 

[JackAlabama]

Paul Tudor Jones said:
Can you just stop posting fake stats and fake numbers?

Gold is up around 18% in Dollar terms since 2013, which is not amazing but not -4%.
SPY is not flat, it's up 250% since 2013.
Nasdsaq is up 40% since the beginning of this year, not 6%.
Crypto is still far from the peak and deep in red.
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If you already take 2013 as starting point for Gold and SPY, Bitcoin is up maybe a whole whopping around 3000x since early 2013 (10ish $) as of today 😉

 

[CyprusLawyer101]

Have a look at a trust as the first step your asset protection plan.

 

[Mister Sir]

A trust= pay a large up front fee, then annual fees and other stealth fees ....a real wealth generator not for the client but for the person who sets it up..........I must have seen at least 10 misappropriation of trust funds over the years in the news...

 

[Mike Forman]

Move around to other countries outside EU, open some personal bank accounts and setup corporations while doing some business. Move the money around from your personal account as loan/investment to a corporation and pay yourself back a dividend on another personal account in another jurisdiction. Move the money again as a loan to a corporation in another country and do the same.

Lend money to someone else their corporation and let that person return the loan again to another personal account.

Make sure you arent a resident anymore in Europe and get all assets out. Use only corporations to invest in properties,preferable with nominees.

Withdraw cash and deposit the cash to another account so there is no digital trace (chose jurisdictions that have no crs or use another residency to register accounts abroad)

Unless you are really wanted it will be difficult and very lengthy for anyone to follow the money trace and once they get closer start moving or withdrawing again.

 

[jafo]

Mike Forman said:
Move around to other countries outside EU, open some personal bank accounts and setup corporations while doing some business. Move the money around from your personal account as loan/investment to a corporation and pay yourself back a dividend on another personal account in another jurisdiction. Move the money again as a loan to a corporation in another country and do the same.

Lend money to someone else their corporation and let that person return the loan again to another personal account.

Make sure you arent a resident anymore in Europe and get all assets out. Use only corporations to invest in properties,preferable with nominees.

Withdraw cash and deposit the cash to another account so there is no digital trace (chose jurisdictions that have no crs or use another residency to register accounts abroad)

Unless you are really wanted it will be difficult and very lengthy for anyone to follow the money trace and once they get closer start moving or withdrawing again.
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The best advice I have read so far. This makes TOTAL sense!

 

[SimpleGuy]

Buy gold and bury it in your garden. Or withdraw cash.

 

[Reawake]

Mike Forman said:
Move around to other countries outside EU, open some personal bank accounts and setup corporations while doing some business. Move the money around from your personal account as loan/investment to a corporation and pay yourself back a dividend on another personal account in another jurisdiction. Move the money again as a loan to a corporation in another country and do the same.
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Sounds like great advice! Personal bank accounts will probably not generate high costs, but how a legal entity in another country? Is there any jurisdiction you would recommend?
I don't have any experience yet in running an offshore company, do you know any references where I can learn as much as possible about this specific topic?

CyprusLawyer101 said:
Have a look at a trust as the first step your asset protection plan.
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Yea, I already did”¦ managing fees are incredibly high. I think unfortunately it's not worth for this amount of money.

 

[ZipZop]

regarding, trust, fundations,etc.. you have minimum statutory limitation periods in EU and also the best offshore jurisdictions for Assez protection trust (from 12 months to 24 months).

an alternative would be an investment in the form of a convertible loan for a specific project abroard (i.e. company in UAE) with the option of conversion to the borrower and not the lender. so in case something happens the lender converts it, it will be mostly illiquid and impossible for the creditors to take over it (and if they do, they will have something worth less than the legal fees). once you are all good, the borrower buy your shares back for the amount of the loan.

it's quite common in my area of work.. (crossborder FO's transactions).

 

[mud]

Reawake said:
Hi all,

I sold the assets of my main company, and now I have nearly 1M in the company account.
Besides this company, I have another LE, which has around 150k in the bank account. Both LEs are registered in Germany.

I have no use case for these funds right now, but I would like to find a solution to keep them protected for the future from possible liability to third parties. This would save me some sleepless nights.
Is there anything you can recommend? I need to be in Germany from time to time, so just take the money and run is unfortunately no option.

Apart from this, which methods would you recommend for protecting financial assets which are already in my personal possession?
I was considering keeping something in cash, something in physical gold and maybe something in crypto. What is the current situation about keeping some funds in a bank which is not participating in CRS? Any bank you can recommend? What are expected costs?

Thanks a lot in advance
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I guess you're worried about someone suing you and forcing you to sell your assets to pay for the court action. Like forcing you to sell the shares in your cash rich companies, or take the cash out.

I'm not sure how it is in Germany but in the British system there are 'trusts' that can be setup for all sorts of things. Trusts are the usual way to own assets. And trusts come in all sorts of shapes and sizes.

One of those is a 'unit' trust where you personally can buy units in. Units are not the same as shares. Units get defined by the Trust Deed and the issuing of 'Revenue Unit's as one of those sorts of Units has been popular for a few hundred years now. A 'Revenue Unit' has the rights to the 'revenue or net income' of the trust but NOT the assets.

So you get any of the Trust's distributions, but the units have no wealth/asset value associated with their ownership. They're not worth anything if you're being forced to sell them. And if the trustee in charge of the trust doesn't distribute anything to you then you have no cash to settle any claims with.

Use of these sorts of vehicles can shrink your own personal asset value and make you a smaller target for anyone chasing you. If you're not much of a target, then prospective litigants usually think twice about beginning actions. If you 'control' the trust however you get to enjoy its assets still, without owning them directly.

Here's an example from Australia for more detail: How to Legally Reduce Your Tax: Without Losing Any Money! eBook : Chan, Ed: Amazon.com.au: Kindle Store

Hope this helps.

 

[Reawake]

ZipZop said:
regarding, trust, fundations,etc.. you have minimum statutory limitation periods in EU and also the best offshore jurisdictions for Assez protection trust (from 12 months to 24 months).

an alternative would be an investment in the form of a convertible loan for a specific project abroard (i.e. company in UAE) with the option of conversion to the borrower and not the lender. so in case something happens the lender converts it, it will be mostly illiquid and impossible for the creditors to take over it (and if they do, they will have something worth less than the legal fees). once you are all good, the borrower buy your shares back for the amount of the loan.

it's quite common in my area of work.. (crossborder FO's transactions).
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Unfortunately, trusts are not legally valid in Germany. The outsourcing of funds to foreign trusts (as domestically is not possible) leads to a double taxation, on deposit and payout. As already mentioned, when donating to a foundation, there is the problem that in case of dispute, this can be reversed for up to 4 years.

However, your second suggestion sounds really interesting, the process is still not completely clear to me”¦ what can the loan be converted into by the borrower?
I suppose the official representative of the offshore company should be someone else then?

mud said:
I guess you're worried about someone suing you and forcing you to sell your assets to pay for the court action. Like forcing you to sell the shares in your cash rich companies, or take the cash out.

I'm not sure how it is in Germany but in the British system there are 'trusts' that can be setup for all sorts of things. Trusts are the usual way to own assets. And trusts come in all sorts of shapes and sizes.

One of those is a 'unit' trust where you personally can buy units in. Units are not the same as shares. Units get defined by the Trust Deed and the issuing of 'Revenue Unit's as one of those sorts of Units has been popular for a few hundred years now. A 'Revenue Unit' has the rights to the 'revenue or net income' of the trust but NOT the assets.

So you get any of the Trust's distributions, but the units have no wealth/asset value associated with their ownership. They're not worth anything if you're being forced to sell them. And if the trustee in charge of the trust doesn't distribute anything to you then you have no cash to settle any claims with.

Use of these sorts of vehicles can shrink your own personal asset value and make you a smaller target for anyone chasing you. If you're not much of a target, then prospective litigants usually think twice about beginning actions. If you 'control' the trust however you get to enjoy its assets still, without owning them directly.

Here's an example from Australia for more detail: How to Legally Reduce Your Tax: Without Losing Any Money! eBook : Chan, Ed: Amazon.com.au: Kindle Store

Hope this helps.
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To be more precise, I am more concerned that someone could sue both my company and me, putting the money in the company, as well as my personal assets, at risk.

I wish trusts were a possibility in Germany, but they are not tolerated by our system here, which leads to multiple taxation as already mentioned 🙁

Reawake said:
However, your second suggestion sounds really interesting, the process is still not completely clear to me”¦ what can the loan be converted into by the borrower?
I suppose the official representative of the offshore company should be someone else then?
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After some research, I think I understand the base concept of a convertible loan. So you mean in case something happens, the borrower can convert the given loan to shares, which brings the lender in the position of owning the shares instead of the money, right? This would mean, theoretically, the creditor could take over the “purchased” shares of the offshore company. Is there anything the possible creditor could do with those shares? What would happen if the lender gets bankrupt while holding some shares?

Last edited: Jul 20, 2023

 

[JustAnotherNomad]

I really think you should speak to someone who specializes in this. Could be Gierhake or someone else. I wouldn't want to go for a DIY solution.

 

[Reawake]

JustAnotherNomad said:
I really think you should speak to someone who specializes in this. Could be Gierhake or someone else. I wouldn't want to go for a DIY solution.
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You're right. I would just like to find a possible way and create a rough concept first. For the final solution, I would definitely contact an expert in this field.

 

[JustAnotherNomad]

Why not just talk to an expert/lawyer right away? You'll need someone who is familiar with German law. A solution that would work elsewhere may not work for you, as you already saw with the trusts.
You could also pick up one of Gierhake's books. I don't know much about this, but there's a reason why he sells Liechtenstein foundations and not German foundations.

 

[Reawake]

I already have Gierhakes book here, beside two other books referring to Asset Protection. Unfortunately, the two books I already finished only cover the “white” way, which makes a short-term asset protection impossible. I will read Gierhakes book over the weekend, hoping there are other more efficient ways. From what I've read, a Liechtenstein foundation will need a lot more money to invest. They also tend to work with the German government openly.

The reason I'm trying to get help here is, that I'm hoping there might be some people here, who are also experienced in this field and know some “gray” ways. If I talk to a lawyer in Germany, they will most likely only show me the “white” way as well.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

Reawake said:
“gray” ways
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Black is grey when the objective is not illegal.
But those who can be after your money can quickly make white look black, so you shouldn't be too picky.

Last edited: Jul 20, 2023
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[jafo]

JohnnyDoe said:
Black is grey when the objective is not illegal.
But those who can be after your money can quickly make white looks black, so you shouldn't be too picky.
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#Bingo! 100% this right here! 😉

Note to self: So many people's minds, beliefs, & thoughts are "imprisoned" inside the "system", but yet hallucinate that the "parasites" leeching off the "system", would act with decency, integrity, honor, and in a "white" manner when these same unproductive parasites' self-preservation is at stake. 🙄

 

[JimBeam]

Please answer:
1. How soon you need this done. In a month, 6months, 1year, more than 1year.
2. Will you be willing to move out from Germany.
3. Would you be willing to spend 10-15% along the way to get this done?

 

[Reawake]

JimBeam said:
Please answer:
1. How soon you need this done. In a month, 6months, 1year, more than 1year.
2. Will you be willing to move out from Germany.
3. Would you be willing to spend 10-15% along the way to get this done?
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1. 6-12 months would be good
2. Yes, I would move out of Germany but this would cause even more problems as it triggers “Wegzugsbesteuerung”. I wanna keep the option to still visit friends and family in Germany and also stay for some time.
3. Highly depends on the exact solution but I'm definitely willing to spend some bucks on a good solution