Private bank requesting tax residence certificate

[Sols]

hortm said:
Why 183? They need 90 days of stay to support gold investor visa and they do not have clear tax residency rules (check PWC).
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https://www.nbr.gov.bh/FTR/certificate_of_tax_residence

The applicant must be physically present in the Kingdom of Bahrain for a period or periods of at least 183 days in the year for which the COR is required. FTRD will coordinate directly with the Nationality, Passport & Residence Affairs (NPRA) to establish if this requirement is met. This criterion is absolute and failure to meet it will lead to the rejection of the COR application.
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hortm said:
They do not have TRC in Bahrain. They have COR (Cerificate of Residence). I think those 90 days are actually not enforced and I think they shall cancel that minimum stay as UAE did.
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If someone asks you for a TRC and you live in Bahrain, COR is what you'll be expected to provide.

https://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-...ssistance/tax-residency/Bahrain-residency.pdf

hortm said:
Also I assume I can move out money in case of such request and tell bank that 1. There is no TRC. 2. If they ask for COR -getting COR is just too complicated (which is true) and I would better just close the account and move to another bank. I think it is negligible bank shall do anything worse then just closing account after that.
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Refusing to provide COR is the same as refusing to provide TRC, and you risk SAR filing.

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This is the probably the answer to your question.

 

[hortm]

karishi said:
Well democratic countries tend to follow the rules, and if you tell to a bank that you are a UAE resident, depending on how much money you have, might ask you for a confirmation that you are actually resident in the UAE or report you to the country of your passport. As usual, there are trade offs, as you say UAE banks are bad and UAE is not a democratic country so bad things can happen, but UAE banks will not report you if you have a valid residency visa.
.Don't put all yout eggs in the same basket, but don't expect banks to believe your UAE residency, since you can stay 3 days a year in the UAE and still be considered resident.
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I assume not all banks are bad there. I saw few issues happened to accounts of people I knew.

Sols said:
https://www.nbr.gov.bh/FTR/certificate_of_tax_residence



If someone asks you for a TRC and you live in Bahrain, COR is what you'll be expected to provide.

https://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-...ssistance/tax-residency/Bahrain-residency.pdf

Refusing to provide COR is the same as refusing to provide TRC, and you risk SAR filing.
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thanks. what if I tell bank I have sent COR request to authorities and waiting for response (and accidentally it shall take forever)? (in meanwhile I am taking out money to another account or crypto).

Last edited: May 6, 2023

 

[karishi]

hortm said:
I assume not all banks are bad there. I saw few issues happened to accounts of people I knew.


thanks. what if I tell bank I have sent COR request to authorities and waiting for response (and accidentally it shall take forever)? (in meanwhile I am taking out money to another account or crypto).
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I personally have never heard of anything bad, nor it has happened to me, but banks are bad here, they try to get money from you from a lot of different angles.

 

[Sols]

hortm said:
thanks. what if I tell bank I have sent COR request to authorities and waiting for response (and accidentally it shall take forever)? (in meanwhile I am taking out money to another account or crypto).
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They might accept it, or they might not. If you're asked for a TRC/COR, that's for a reason. Until you satisfy that requirement, it's not uncommon for limits to be imposed on the accounts.

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This is the probably the answer to your question.

 

[Konstanz]

The main problem Bahrain is even worse to live than Dubai. I have not been there. But from what I see it far less popular than Dubai. So you don't have that vibrant luxury life as in Dubai.
I would still choose Dubai over Bahrain even with blacklists

 

[karishi]

Konstanz said:
The main problem Bahrain is even worse to live than Dubai. I have not been there. But from what I see it far less popular than Dubai. So you don't have that vibrant luxury life as in Dubai.
I would still choose Dubai over Bahrain even with blacklists
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I think the discussion here was if having a Bahrein residency was less supicious than having a UAE residency, if you don't plan to have a TRC or COR, in case the bank asks. Right now in Dubai it's 90 days for a TRC, while in Bahrain is 183 days for a COR, that's something else to take into account.

 

[Konstanz]

karishi said:
I think the discussion here was if having a Bahrein residency was less supicious than having a UAE residency, if you don't plan to have a TRC or COR, in case the bank asks. Right now in Dubai it's 90 days for a TRC, while in Bahrain is 183 days for a COR, that's something else to take into account.
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I dont think it would be less suspicious than Dubai

 

[hortm]

Konstanz said:
The main problem Bahrain is even worse to live than Dubai. I have not been there. But from what I see it far less popular than Dubai. So you don't have that vibrant life as in Dubai.
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karishi said:
I think the discussion here was if having a Bahrein residency was less supicious than having a UAE residency, if you don't plan to have a TRC or COR, in case the bank asks. Right now in Dubai it's 90 days for a TRC, while in Bahrain is 183 days for a COR, that's something else to take into account.
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is it actually 90 days in UAE if one has own real estate there? They have this rule also for tax residency -

• Their principal place of residence and the center of their financial and personal interests are in the UAE.

 

[karishi]

hortm said:
is it actually 90 days in UAE if one has own real estate there? They have this rule also for tax residency -

• Their principal place of residence and the center of their financial and personal interests are in the UAE.

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This is a question for @Fred
I think the official wording is:

• was physically present in the UAE for a period of 90 days or more in a consecutive 12-month period and the individual is a UAE national, holds a valid residence permit in the UAE or holds the nationality of any GCC Member State, where:

(i) he or she has a permanent place of residence in the UAE; or

(ii) he or she carries on an employment or a business in the UAE.

So it's not clear if it's enough to have a company in the UAE, while for sure an EJARI ( rental certificate ) should be enough.

 

[Konstanz]

karishi said:
This is a question for @Fred
I think the official wording is:

• was physically present in the UAE for a period of 90 days or more in a consecutive 12-month period and the individual is a UAE national, holds a valid residence permit in the UAE or holds the nationality of any GCC Member State, where:

(i) he or she has a permanent place of residence in the UAE; or

(ii) he or she carries on an employment or a business in the UAE.

So it's not clear if it's enough to have a company in the UAE, while for sure an EJARI ( rental certificate ) should be enough.
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You have to have EJARI for tax certificate for sure. This was confirmed by my lawyer in UAE

 

[Fred]

Konstanz said:
You have to have EJARI for tax certificate for sure. This was confirmed by my lawyer in UAE
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Having the pratice experience - we can't confirm this.

But yes - it's mentioned as an official requirement from the FTA.

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[hortm]

What if one has not EJARI, but +2m AED properties where he actually lived - still all his belongings are inside, utility bills on his name, etc.? He is not even renting it out - just not bothering. Do you think there is way to get TRC in such case?

As I understand, if you are requesting TRC from government website then wesbite is asking for entry/exit certificate with 90 days of stay.

Maybe there is way to get TRC not through website basing on property mentioned above?

 

[karishi]

hortm said:
What if one has not EJARI, but +2m AED properties where he actually lived - still all his belongings are inside, utility bills on his name, etc.? He is not even renting it out - just not bothering. Do you think there is way to get TRC in such case?

As I understand, if you are requesting TRC from government website then wesbite is asking for entry/exit certificate with 90 days of stay.

Maybe there is way to get TRC not through website basing on property mentioned above?
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I think you either have a property deed certificate/DEWA Bill or an Ejari, it's the same

 

[hortm]

karishi said:
I think you either have a property deed certificate/DEWA Bill or an Ejari, it's the same
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but my question is about 90 days. is it possible to get TRC if one is not visiting at all?

 

[karishi]

hortm said:
but my question is about 90 days. is it possible to get TRC if one is not visiting at all?
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no 90 days is the minimum, although I think that the ministry could make some exception based on particular situations. But in general 90 days are required.

 

[hortm]

karishi said:
no 90 days is the minimum, although I think that the ministry could make some exception based on particular situations. But in general 90 days are required.
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did anyone see such exceptions in real life cases previously? or does anyone know lawyers who potentially help with such case?

karishi said:
This is a question for @Fred
I think the official wording is:

• was physically present in the UAE for a period of 90 days or more in a consecutive 12-month period and the individual is a UAE national, holds a valid residence permit in the UAE or holds the nationality of any GCC Member State, where:

(i) he or she has a permanent place of residence in the UAE; or

(ii) he or she carries on an employment or a business in the UAE.

So it's not clear if it's enough to have a company in the UAE, while for sure an EJARI ( rental certificate ) should be enough.
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Please check links. Wording has word ANY. I think person I am talking about fits item. 1 -

https://tax.gov.ae/Datafolder/Files...inet Decision 85 of 2022 - For publishing.pdf

https://mof.gov.ae/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Ministerial-Decision-27-of-2023-of-Tax-Residency.pdf
Here is wording:

A natural person shall be considered a Tax Resident in the State where any of the following conditions are met: 1. If his usual or primary place of residence and the centre of his financial and personal interests are in the State, or he meets the conditions and criteria determined by a decision from the Minister. 2. If he has been physically present in the State for a period of (183) one hundred and eighty-three days or more, within the relevant (12) twelve consecutive months. 3. If he has been physically present in the State for a period of (90) ninety days or more, within the relevant (12) twelve consecutive months, and he is a UAE national, holds a valid Residence Permit in the State or holds the nationality of any member state of the Gulf Cooperation Council, and meets any of the Cabinet Decision No. 85 of 2022 - Unofficial Translation 3 following: a. He has a Permanent Place of Residence in the State. b. He carries on an employment or Business in the State.

Last edited: May 7, 2023

 

[karishi]

hortm said:
did anyone see such exceptions in real life cases previously? or does anyone know lawyers who potentially help with such case?


Please check links. Wording has word ANY. I think person I am talking about fits item. 1 -

https://tax.gov.ae/Datafolder/Files...inet Decision 85 of 2022 - For publishing.pdf

https://mof.gov.ae/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Ministerial-Decision-27-of-2023-of-Tax-Residency.pdf
Here is wording:

A natural person shall be considered a Tax Resident in the State where any of the following conditions are met: 1. If his usual or primary place of residence and the centre of his financial and personal interests are in the State, or he meets the conditions and criteria determined by a decision from the Minister. 2. If he has been physically present in the State for a period of (183) one hundred and eighty-three days or more, within the relevant (12) twelve consecutive months. 3. If he has been physically present in the State for a period of (90) ninety days or more, within the relevant (12) twelve consecutive months, and he is a UAE national, holds a valid Residence Permit in the State or holds the nationality of any member state of the Gulf Cooperation Council, and meets any of the Cabinet Decision No. 85 of 2022 - Unofficial Translation 3 following: a. He has a Permanent Place of Residence in the State. b. He carries on an employment or Business in the State.
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I have never actually known anybody who has needed a TRC. If I had to get one, to prove origin of my funds when buying something, I would stay 90 days.

 

[hortm]

karishi said:
I have never actually known anybody who has needed a TRC. If I had to get one, to prove origin of my funds when buying something, I would stay 90 days.
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I do not think you shall need TRC to support money source. I think you may need it in case of review by compliance. And that 90 days stay won't help because "you already was not resident at period they are asking".

 

[karishi]

hortm said:
I do not think you shall need TRC to support money source. I think you may need it in case of review by compliance. And that 90 days stay won't help because "you already was not resident at period they are asking".
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let's say I want to buy a house in a place which is not Dubai. Before buying it, I would get 2 TRC in Dubai and then buy the house, in case they ask where the money is coming from. The other case in which I would get a TRC is if I ever plan to go back to my home country, something I have no intention of doing.

 

[hortm]

karishi said:
let's say I want to buy a house in a place which is not Dubai. Before buying it, I would get 2 TRC in Dubai and then buy the house, in case they ask where the money is coming from. The other case in which I would get a TRC is if I ever plan to go back to my home country, something I have no intention of doing.
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TRC has term on it. You get it only for certain period. If there is no escape from 90 days rule the that won't work if you. Before getting TRC online you provide them entry/exit certificate which is generated automatically.