UK vote to scrap non-dom status unsuccessful and millionaires flee UK anyway

[Martin Everson]

FYI UK just held a house of commons vote yesterday to get rid of non-dom status.

https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons/Division/1475
The results went pretty much along party lines with conservatives against and Labour for scrapping it. So the status remains. However chances are Labour will sweep to power in next election as UK is a mess. If this happens the vote result will be very different. So I would stay away from moving to UK if non-dom status and remittance based taxation is important to you.

P.S Millionaires are also reportedly moving out from the UK.

https://bmmagazine.co.uk/in-business/millionaires-are-falling-out-of-love-with-britain/

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[manukahoney]

Bloody idiots! They think money grows on a tree and people choose the UK for a lovely climate and culture 🙂

 

[MarkusCostigan]

Martin Everson said:
FYI UK just held a house of commons vote yesterday to get rid of non-dom status.

https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons/Division/1475
The results went pretty much along party lines with conservatives against and Labour for scrapping it. So the status remains. However chances are Labour will sweep to power in next election as UK is a mess. If this happens the vote result will be very different. So I would stay away from moving to UK if non-dom status and remittance based taxation is important to you.

P.S Millionaires are also reportedly moving out from the UK.

https://bmmagazine.co.uk/in-business/millionaires-are-falling-out-of-love-with-britain/
Click to expand...

Do you think Malta will follow?

 

[WorldCitizen99]

Martin Everson said:
FYI UK just held a house of commons vote yesterday to get rid of non-dom status.

https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons/Division/1475
The results went pretty much along party lines with conservatives against and Labour for scrapping it. So the status remains. However chances are Labour will sweep to power in next election as UK is a mess. If this happens the vote result will be very different. So I would stay away from moving to UK if non-dom status and remittance based taxation is important to you.

P.S Millionaires are also reportedly moving out from the UK.

https://bmmagazine.co.uk/in-business/millionaires-are-falling-out-of-love-with-britain/
Click to expand...

I just found a very nice loophole for Canadians who retire in the UK and collect a pension. The UK tax treaty is the only one where Cdns will pay ZERO Cdn WHT on "periodic pension payments".

I guess if you were non-dom and you wanted to be perfectly safe, you would remit the pension payments to a bank account outside the UK to avoid any possible taxation.

My 2 questions are:

Does claiming treaty benefits on a PENSION make you 'domicile by choice' or 'deemed domicile' or something? Would UK tax authority argue that collecting your pension in the UK meant that you were planning on staying there long term bc you were now a retiree?

Let's say you were deemed to be domiciled, would you pay tax in the UK on that income if you remitted it, or does the treaty benefit mean that there is no tax on either the Cdn or UK side?

It would be pretty sweet to benefit from the treaty and be non-dom and be tax free on all your foreign source income. That would make the rain, fog, cold weather and demographic situation almost bearable.

 

[Alonzo]

Martin Everson said:
So I would stay away from moving to UK if non-dom status and remittance based taxation is important to you.

P.S Millionaires are also reportedly moving out from the UK.
Click to expand...

The UK will still remain as the most attractive European country when it comes to taxation - A first world country with low to no chances of a wealth tax, council tax (British equivalent for annual property tax) is ridiculously low for multi-million pound homes, every supercar in the UK are taxed very low annually (520£ for 2017 and newer vehicles and the fact that there is no crazy registration tax). And ALL of this while living in London where you have every single amenities a person can think of.

The only Western European country that comes close to UK taxation system is Germany. Every other countries in Europe are far worse.

Do you guys really think that Tories will be a minority in the House of Commons? There's no way it will happen imo

 

[Anonymous1234]

Which non-dom is best as your experience, knowledge? I am considering non dom countries but worried about CFC and permanent establishment rules. What do you think is a more safer place to be non dom? Ireland? Malta? Cyprus?

 

[manukahoney]

A1988 said:
Which non-dom is best as your experience, knowledge? I am considering non dom countries but worried about CFC and permanent establishment rules. What do you think is a more safer place to be non dom? Ireland? Malta? Cyprus?
Click to expand...

Italy has the best tax regime if you have 100k eur to spare and are not planning on any capital gains on the companies where you hold a big stake (25%+). No remittance play, no "clean capital", none of the regular dances with non-dom.

Ireland has the same non-dom regime UK has before, so 17 years, very straightforward, the same "remittance basis".

Cyprus and Malta are OK, but they are tiny islands with nothing to do, so plan carefully. Cyprus has 60-days tax residency though, so can be utilised with the digital nomad lifestyle.

Portugal is OK, but 183 days for residence makes it hard to swallow.

So for my taste - either Italy (no minimum requirement to stay, plenty to explore, generally well-connected and interesting country) or Cyprus for 60 days and digital nomading.

GHD999 said:
The UK will still remain as the most attractive European country when it comes to taxation - A first world country with low to no chances of a wealth tax, council tax (British equivalent for annual property tax) is ridiculously low for multi-million pound homes, every supercar in the UK are taxed very low annually (520£ for 2017 and newer vehicles and the fact that there is no crazy registration tax). And ALL of this while living in London where you have every single amenities a person can think of.
Click to expand...

You can literally live in 1 hour from London - in Dublin and have all the amenities and still enjoy the non-dom regime.

 

[Marzio]

manukahoney said:
Portugal is OK, but 183 days for residence makes it hard to swallow.
Click to expand...

According to the Portuguese tax law an individual is deemed to be resident in Portugal for tax purposes if one meets either of the following conditions:

• Spends more than 183 days, consecutive or not, in Portugal in any 12-month period starting or ending in the fiscal year concerned.
• Regardless of spending less than 183 days in Portugal, maintains a residence (i.e. a habitual residence) in Portugal during any day of the period referred above.

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/portugal/individual/residence

 

[marioIT]

abstract of the video below (Labour MP) on the issue...
the revenue created from the abolition of then non-dom status would be used for "headline-banging stuff" (listen it in the video lol).
Then she goes on and shows the result of a 4 years long research by "top academics" (I bet very expensive research, philosophical and totally detached from real life as usual, and I bet also the "top academics" are just labour voting professors).
These will completely fix youth violence, report said:
- parenting courses, but just for the first years of childhood;
- breakfast clubs in primary schools.

I bet 10 quids, and mark my words, the "breakfast clubs" would pretty much end like the whole "drag queens in school" shitshow happening right now in the USA smi(&%

IF the UK goes fully woke, good luck living there lol

 

[Martin Everson]

MarkusCostigan said:
Do you think Malta will follow?
Click to expand...

Unlikely. UK has specific populist political issues and may end up being the next Spain.

GHD999 said:
The UK will still remain as the most attractive European country when it comes to taxation
Click to expand...

You mean even if non-dom scheme is scrapped by a change of government? UK is a high tax country bad weather and a population getting poorer since brexit.

WorldCitizen99 said:
I just found a very nice loophole for Canadians who retire in the UK and collect a pension. The UK tax treaty is the only one where Cdns will pay ZERO Cdn WHT on "periodic pension payments".

I guess if you were non-dom and you wanted to be perfectly safe, you would remit the pension payments to a bank account outside the UK to avoid any possible taxation.
Click to expand...

See my above question.

manukahoney said:
Italy has the best tax regime if you have 100k eur to spare and are not planning on any capital gains on the companies where you hold a big stake (25%+). No remittance play, no "clean capital", none of the regular dances with non-dom.
Click to expand...

Btw Greece has similar non-dom scheme to Italy. I discussed it in another thread last year.

A1988 said:
Which non-dom is best as your experience, knowledge? I am considering non dom countries but worried about CFC and permanent establishment rules. What do you think is a more safer place to be non dom? Ireland? Malta? Cyprus?
Click to expand...

Comes down to what area of world you want to live. There are non-dom schemes around the globe.

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[Anonymous1234]

Martin Everson said:
Comes down to what area of world you want to live. There are non-dom schemes around the globe.
Click to expand...

Europe or second would be asia.

manukahoney said:
Italy has the best tax regime if you have 100k eur to spare and are not planning on any capital gains on the companies where you hold a big stake (25%+). No remittance play, no "clean capital", none of the regular dances with non-dom.

Ireland has the same non-dom regime UK has before, so 17 years, very straightforward, the same "remittance basis".

Cyprus and Malta are OK, but they are tiny islands with nothing to do, so plan carefully. Cyprus has 60-days tax residency though, so can be utilised with the digital nomad lifestyle.

Portugal is OK, but 183 days for residence makes it hard to swallow.

So for my taste - either Italy (no minimum requirement to stay, plenty to explore, generally well-connected and interesting country) or Cyprus for 60 days and digital nomading.


You can literally live in 1 hour from London - in Dublin and have all the amenities and still enjoy the non-dom regime.
Click to expand...

Italy should be considered only if you are 60 and above otherwise it is hell, I live in italy and would not recommend it to anyone. It has one of the worst services in europe. i believe the 100k rule also has a lot of if's and buts and declarations.

Last edited: Feb 2, 2023

 

[manukahoney]

Marzio said:

• Spends more than 183 days, consecutive or not, in Portugal in any 12-month period starting or ending in the fiscal year concerned.
• Regardless of spending less than 183 days in Portugal, maintains a residence (i.e. a habitual residence) in Portugal during any day of the period referred above.

Click to expand...

Interesting, didn't know that.
In reality how do they treat that rule? If I rent or buy an apartment, will I get the tax certificate even if I was present in the country for a week in a year?

Martin Everson said:
Btw Greece has similar non-dom scheme to Italy. I discussed it in another thread last year.
Click to expand...

Yes, Greece has similar arrangements, I think Italy is just better money-wise.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

A1988 said:
Italy should be considered only if you are 60 and above otherwise it is hell,
Click to expand...

It's a great country if you only consider it for entertainment, at any age.

A1988 said:
I live in italy and would not recommend it to anyone. It has one of the worst services in europe.
Click to expand...

There are worse countries. Sometimes services are surprisingly efficient.

A1988 said:
i believe the 100k rule also has a lot of if's and buts and declarations.
Click to expand...

Zero if's and buts once you are approved. The annual declaration is a one-pager.

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[marioIT]

Italy is not safe these days if you show off even a little.
I mean if you're new and buy a nice villa. "Entry level" supercar that starts to be seen around. Or a nice watch shown in public places.
Plenty of entrepreneurs/VIPs robbed while they sleep in their villa.
At gun point.
Alarm and security bars on windows are not enough.
Usually no fingerprints as they use gloves. No faces (balaclavas)...
People said that you call the police and it's too late and they never get them. and if you're not a VIP or politician they'll not even try to see if they left some fingerprints and not even bother checking all the cameras in the neighborhoods.
They'll follow your supercar and they'll point a gun at you while you're opening your gate or even stuck in traffic in broad daylight.
They are organized gangs. Usually foreigners with italian lookouts.
East European ones are worse as they are very violent for no reason on wife and children.
Even gypsies do this and there's plenty of unidentified ones there.
Gypsies usually will s**t all arount your house too. They love s**t. A guy was tied and they shat in his m*uth as he didn't want to give them jewels... 🙄
Seriously, cannot even leave your wife with your kids in the big city parks.

Even Leclerc was robbed (Richard Mille watch) lol
https://www.planetf1.com/news/charles-leclerc-robbed-300k-watch/
Even Salvini's son (the minister)
https://www.ansa.it/english/news/po...lan_4dc1da2b-ebe3-4af9-8d64-e8f5df182691.html
Thieves even dress up as cops in daylight lol
https://www.ansa.it/english/news/20...man_ecae214c-2981-41b0-ab26-0e1c93d5d12d.html
A quick google will show what i mean:
https://news.italy-24.com/news/3372...ur-He-took-his-wife-and-daughter-hostage.htmlhttps://www.ansa.it/english/news/ge...lan_735d5116-385b-4381-83e5-4b10f5ce934e.htmlhttps://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/14666589/chris-smalling-robbery-italy/https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/s...rchisio-wife-robbed-GUNPOINT-villa-Turin.htmlhttps://www.goal.com/en/news/ac-mil...obbed-at-gun-point/16cvmlbq68as61skne2nzb0jd4https://nybreaking.com/armed-robber...-rolex-from-british-professor-in-milan-italy/https://football-italia.net/lazio-midfielder-basic-robbed-at-gunpoint/https://www.besoccer.com/new/napoli-s-insigne-robbed-at-gunpointhttps://www.ansa.it/english/news/ge...les_f5c3157a-9824-4ecb-a6d4-ca6b81be8730.html
I could find thousands of articles from local newspaper... plus all the ones that don't makes to the news.

it's a long time issue, since 2000 it got wide spread. e.g.
https://www.independent.ie/world-news/robbers-ruining-idyllic-tuscany-26124278.htmlwhen police gets them, italian justice is so mild on them that they areout in a few months or aren't even jailed.

Last edited: Feb 3, 2023

 

[JohnnyDoe]

marioIT said:
Italy is not safe these days if you show off even a little.
I mean if you're new and buy a nice villa. "Entry level" supercar that starts to be seen around. Or a nice watch shown in public places.
Plenty of entrepreneurs/VIPs robbed while they sleep in their villa.
At gun point.
Alarm and security bars on windows are not enough.
Usually no fingerprints as they use gloves. No faces (balaclavas)...
People said that you call the police and it's too late and they never get them. and if you're not a VIP or politician they'll not even try to see if they left some fingerprints and not even bother checking all the cameras in the neighborhoods.
They'll follow your supercar and they'll point a gun at you while you're opening your gate or even stuck in traffic in broad daylight.
They are organized gangs. Usually foreigners with italian lookouts.
East European ones are worse as they are very violent for no reason on wife and children.
Even gypsies do this and there's plenty of unidentified ones there.
Gypsies usually will s**t all arount your house too. They love s**t. A guy was tied and they shat in his m*uth as he didn't want to give them jewels... 🙄
Seriously, cannot even leave your wife with your kids in the big city parks.

Even Leclerc was robbed (Richard Mille watch) lol
https://www.planetf1.com/news/charles-leclerc-robbed-300k-watch/
Even Salvini's son (the minister)
https://www.ansa.it/english/news/po...lan_4dc1da2b-ebe3-4af9-8d64-e8f5df182691.html
Thieves even dress up as cops in daylight lol
https://www.ansa.it/english/news/20...man_ecae214c-2981-41b0-ab26-0e1c93d5d12d.html
A quick google will show what i mean:
https://news.italy-24.com/news/3372...ur-He-took-his-wife-and-daughter-hostage.htmlhttps://www.ansa.it/english/news/ge...lan_735d5116-385b-4381-83e5-4b10f5ce934e.htmlhttps://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/14666589/chris-smalling-robbery-italy/https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/s...rchisio-wife-robbed-GUNPOINT-villa-Turin.htmlhttps://www.goal.com/en/news/ac-mil...obbed-at-gun-point/16cvmlbq68as61skne2nzb0jd4https://nybreaking.com/armed-robber...-rolex-from-british-professor-in-milan-italy/https://football-italia.net/lazio-midfielder-basic-robbed-at-gunpoint/https://www.besoccer.com/new/napoli-s-insigne-robbed-at-gunpointhttps://www.ansa.it/english/news/ge...les_f5c3157a-9824-4ecb-a6d4-ca6b81be8730.html
I could find thousands of articles from local newspaper... plus all the ones that don't makes to the news.

it's a long time issue, since 2000 it got wide spread. e.g.
https://www.independent.ie/world-news/robbers-ruining-idyllic-tuscany-26124278.htmlwhen police gets them, italian justice is so mild on them that they areout in a few months or aren't even jailed.
Click to expand...

Real advice from Carabinieri colonel: “don't bother calling us, dig a hole and diy” 😉

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@JohnnyDoe ”“ Your #1 Source for Guidance in Different Offshore Fields​

 

[manukahoney]

Is it such a big thing in Italy?
I mead robberies happen in every big city in Europe, there are plenty cases in London,Madrid, Lisbon etc. It's even worse for US, I wouldn't wear a Rolex in LA downtown for instance. Flashy lifestyle attracts unwanted attention, if you like expensive toys - you would feel safer in Dubai or Singapore.

 

[Anonymous1234]

JohnnyDoe said:
It's a great country if you only consider it for entertainment, at any age.
Click to expand...

depends on what your definition of entertainment is, I think there are better places for all types of entertainment like amsterdam, london, dubai and singapore.

marioIT said:
Italy is not safe these days if you show off even a little.
I mean if you're new and buy a nice villa. "Entry level" supercar that starts to be seen around. Or a nice watch shown in public places.
Plenty of entrepreneurs/VIPs robbed while they sleep in their villa.
At gun point.
Alarm and security bars on windows are not enough.
Usually no fingerprints as they use gloves. No faces (balaclavas)...
People said that you call the police and it's too late and they never get them. and if you're not a VIP or politician they'll not even try to see if they left some fingerprints and not even bother checking all the cameras in the neighborhoods.
They'll follow your supercar and they'll point a gun at you while you're opening your gate or even stuck in traffic in broad daylight.
They are organized gangs. Usually foreigners with italian lookouts.
East European ones are worse as they are very violent for no reason on wife and children.
Even gypsies do this and there's plenty of unidentified ones there.
Gypsies usually will s**t all arount your house too. They love s**t. A guy was tied and they shat in his m*uth as he didn't want to give them jewels... 🙄
Seriously, cannot even leave your wife with your kids in the big city parks.

Even Leclerc was robbed (Richard Mille watch) lol
https://www.planetf1.com/news/charles-leclerc-robbed-300k-watch/
Even Salvini's son (the minister)
https://www.ansa.it/english/news/po...lan_4dc1da2b-ebe3-4af9-8d64-e8f5df182691.html
Thieves even dress up as cops in daylight lol
https://www.ansa.it/english/news/20...man_ecae214c-2981-41b0-ab26-0e1c93d5d12d.html
A quick google will show what i mean:
https://news.italy-24.com/news/3372...ur-He-took-his-wife-and-daughter-hostage.htmlhttps://www.ansa.it/english/news/ge...lan_735d5116-385b-4381-83e5-4b10f5ce934e.htmlhttps://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/14666589/chris-smalling-robbery-italy/https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/s...rchisio-wife-robbed-GUNPOINT-villa-Turin.htmlhttps://www.goal.com/en/news/ac-mil...obbed-at-gun-point/16cvmlbq68as61skne2nzb0jd4https://nybreaking.com/armed-robber...-rolex-from-british-professor-in-milan-italy/https://football-italia.net/lazio-midfielder-basic-robbed-at-gunpoint/https://www.besoccer.com/new/napoli-s-insigne-robbed-at-gunpointhttps://www.ansa.it/english/news/ge...les_f5c3157a-9824-4ecb-a6d4-ca6b81be8730.html
I could find thousands of articles from local newspaper... plus all the ones that don't makes to the news.

it's a long time issue, since 2000 it got wide spread. e.g.
https://www.independent.ie/world-news/robbers-ruining-idyllic-tuscany-26124278.htmlwhen police gets them, italian justice is so mild on them that they areout in a few months or aren't even jailed.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you, just to add italy has guardia di finanza which basically is the fiscal police, they go around in cars and stop people and check, they are also at the airports and have a lot of power. Its like IRS on the streets, I have seen people being stopped with mercedes A class, which in italy stands out.

JohnnyDoe said:
There are worse countries. Sometimes services are surprisingly efficient.
Click to expand...

there are always worse countries, depends on what you are comparing with? Italy is still considered a first world developed country but in my opinion its a semi third world country and will soon fail from an economic standpoint unless they change, which I dont think will happen.

manukahoney said:
Is it such a big thing in Italy?
I mead robberies happen in every big city in Europe, there are plenty cases in London,Madrid, Lisbon etc. It's even worse for US, I wouldn't wear a Rolex in LA downtown for instance. Flashy lifestyle attracts unwanted attention, if you like expensive toys - you would feel safer in Dubai or Singapore.
Click to expand...

yes, italy is like spain, maybe spain is worse with robberies and break ins, my friends house has been robbed multiple times apparently there was a gang of ex-military men from russia and serbia in marbella. But yes italy comes 2nd in my opinion.

Last edited: Feb 3, 2023

 

[JohnnyDoe]

manukahoney said:
Is it such a big thing in Italy?
Click to expand...

Not at all. When I'm there, I never lock the door. But I wouldn't leave my car unattended in Naples or Milan.

A1988 said:
depends on what your definition of entertainment is, I think there are better places for all types of entertainment like amsterdam, london, dubai and singapore.
Click to expand...

Food and culture. Nothing can be even remotely compared to Italy in these areas.

A1988 said:
I totally agree with you, just to add italy has guardia di finanza which basically is the fiscal police, they go around in cars and stop people and check, they are also at the airports and have a lot of power. Its like IRS on the streets, I have seen people being stopped with mercedes A class, which in italy stands out.
Click to expand...

They do their job. If you are tax compliant, you have nothing to worry and you will receive compliments for your car (sometimes the guys will even ask you to make a ride or just some noise with the gas pedal). We should also say that all police forces of Italy wear quite elegant uniforms and for some reason the Carabinieri chicks are always hot.

Last edited: Feb 3, 2023
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[manukahoney]

A1988 said:
yes, italy is like spain, maybe spain is worse with robberies and break ins, my friends house has been robbed multiple times apparently there was a gang of ex-military men from russia and serbia in marbella. But yes italy comes 2nd in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Ough, if it's like Marbella, I wouldn't worry much. It's one of the safest places I've spent time in my life, as long as you don't flash your wealth or actively looking for trouble (drugs). I mean I never felt completely safe walking at 1am in London or Eastern Europe, but in Marbella it's absolutely fine. There are some home robberies and pickpocket crime focusing on expensive watches and jewellery, but as long as you don't put a marker on your back you will have zero problems.

Again, it's the same for any place I visited except Dubai where everyone is trying to look like a pimp so it's hard to say who's real and who's fake 🙂

 

[sharklasers]

marioIT said:
Plenty of entrepreneurs/VIPs robbed while they sleep in their villa.
At gun point.
Alarm and security bars on windows are not enough.
Click to expand...

None is going to do your job, sorry. Buy a gun, spend few hours on shooting range and sleep well at night.