Citizenship by investment for people with no first passport

[patrick12]

Hi everyone,

I have a good friend who is part of an oppressed minority in their country and their government denies any passport request from their ethnic group, so they are basically stuck in that country, at the mercy of the bullying from the police.

They were looking at CIP but quickly realized that most countries offering that kind of service require you to already have a first passport. I was told that the 2 following countries do accept stateless people applications:

• Vanuatu, but I find no mention of that on their official site and they seem to be asking for a passport number
• Antigua, they seem to not be asking for passport number indeed

I was wondering if anyone had more information on the matter, or even experience with these? Or if you know about any other country accepting stateless people application for CIP.

thank you!

 

[Martin Everson]

They just need to apply for a Convention Travel Document in another country and then use that document for whatever program they are looking to apply for.

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[Mr Eros]

Not all stateless people are treated the same way. Please shed more light on that. What's his nationality or ethnicity and where does he reside?

 

[patrick12]

Mr Eros said:
Not all stateless people are treated the same way. Please shed more light on that. What's his nationality or ethnicity and where does he reside?
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He is Uyghur living in China.

Martin Everson said:
They just need to apply for a Convention Travel Document in another country and then use that document for whatever program they are looking to apply for.
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We tried contacting embassies regarding that one and it is actually a bit difficult to get as you need to first get the refugee status which could take years according to my embassy, especially with Ukrainians and Iranians getting the priority these days (I am not saying that they do not deserve asylum as well).
Another issue is that Chinese customs officers are well known to just take away that kind of documents -- or even destroy chinese passports once at the airport.

 

[Martin Everson]

patrick12 said:
We tried contacting embassies regarding that one and it is actually a bit difficult to get as you need to first get the refugee status which could take years according to my embassy, especially with Ukrainians and Iranians getting the priority these days (I am not saying that they do not deserve asylum as well).
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Which embassy you contacted and who told you it would take years?

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[patrick12]

Martin Everson said:
Which embassy you contacted and who told you it would take years?
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I contacted the French embassy (my embassy) and an employee there told me that. I had a similar response from an immigration lawyer that I got in touch with. If the person is already in the country it takes less time according to them.

 

[darkmage12]

Without documentation how does your friend travel out then? I may have a few options but then without a passport or travelling documents I don't see a way for your friend to get out of China. Furthermore China is on lockdown now. Applying to come out is a pain in the a*s even with documentations. Any China ID or proof of identity?

 

[patrick12]

darkmage12 said:
Without documentation how does your friend travel out then? I may have a few options but then without a passport or travelling documents I don't see a way for your friend to get out of China. Furthermore China is on lockdown now. Applying to come out is a pain in the a*s even with documentations. Any China ID or proof of identity?
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Well he has never been able to go outside of the country!
Yes true, even with a passport right now it is hard to get out, not only because of the lockdown, but because the government is trying to prevent people from leaving. Lots of folks from middle/upper class have started to get out and now unless you have proof that you found a job or a university abroad you cannot leave the country.
He has a China ID and birth certificate.

 

[darkmage12]

patrick12 said:
Well he has never been able to go outside of the country!
Yes true, even with a passport right now it is hard to get out, not only because of the lockdown, but because the government is trying to prevent people from leaving. Lots of folks from middle/upper class have started to get out and now unless you have proof that you found a job or a university abroad you cannot leave the country.
He has a China ID and birth certificate.
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Even with proof of job or university abroad you still need to show that you have money to live abroad. I have done quite a few ones for a number of friends from China now. Let me check if ID and birth certificate will work. It's getting tougher for them with the zero covid policy.

 

[patrick12]

darkmage12 said:
Even with proof of job or university abroad you still need to show that you have money to live abroad. I have done quite a few ones for a number of friends from China now. Let me check if ID and birth certificate will work. It's getting tougher for them with the zero covid policy.
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Yes he's also working on getting his money outta there, which is another headache @_@

thank you for checking!

 

[void]

guys, the fact that you're serious in this thread makes me feel physically sick, what a fucked up world

 

[darkmage12]

patrick12 said:
Yes he's also working on getting his money outta there, which is another headache @_@

thank you for checking!
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Well there was a fire in his region like yesterday and there was a protest to lift the lockdown restrictions. People died from the fire. I guess the zero covid policy is getting out of hand with cases soaring to 30k.

 

[Mike Forman]

void said:
guys, the fact that you're serious in this thread makes me feel physically sick, what a fucked up world
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Nowadays Chinese travel becomes hard as the Chinese government refuses even to its native Han mainland Chinese, to renew or give a passport. To get a visa and be able to go abroad same thing if you don't have a valid business reason, this on top of the covid measures in certain cities.

Getting capital out of China is another headache and the best way is still using Hong Kong connections or agents...
Being on top an Uigur makes it more complicated. That's unfortunately the situation in China.

Perhaps he can cross the borders out of China, although I dont believe any neighbouring countries will entertain refugees/illegal Chinese immigrants, and being sent back to China would result being taken into detention

Would be interesting to hear what the solutions are for people that cant obtain a passport in China.

 

[patrick12]

Mike Forman said:
Perhaps he can cross the borders out of China, although I dont believe any neighbouring countries will entertain refugees/illegal Chinese immigrants, and being sent back to China would result being taken into detention
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Yes that's exactly our thought! I got the example of an Uyghur refugee camp in Thailand, people have been kept there for years and are just being sent back to China little by little when Thailand needs a favor from China.

Mike Forman said:
Would be interesting to hear what the solutions are for people that cant obtain a passport in China.
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There are actually entire companies which business model is to sell that kind of stuff to people. They usually have a lot of contacts in the government and can make many things happen, like getting a passport, getting your kids in a particular school...
My friend is in contact with one of these companies, and has paid a lot of money. The issue is that because of covid a lot of things have slowed down and the officials getting the bribes prefer to focus on families rather than individuals because it makes more money. My friend has been waiting for more than a year and his account manager in the company understands very well his situation but cannot do anything since her manager won't put my friend on the priority list...

 

[darkmage12]

patrick12 said:
Yes that's exactly our thought! I got the example of an Uyghur refugee camp in Thailand, people have been kept there for years and are just being sent back to China little by little when Thailand needs a favor from China.


There are actually entire companies which business model is to sell that kind of stuff to people. They usually have a lot of contacts in the government and can make many things happen, like getting a passport, getting your kids in a particular school...
My friend is in contact with one of these companies, and has paid a lot of money. The issue is that because of covid a lot of things have slowed down and the officials getting the bribes prefer to focus on families rather than individuals because it makes more money. My friend has been waiting for more than a year and his account manager in the company understands very well his situation but cannot do anything since her manager won't put my friend on the priority list...
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Well if your friend is of Muslim religion it seems that it would be virtually impossible to get a passport now. I'm checking with some SOE which have projects abroad to see if they can issue working order to him. Then use that country to issue Visa for him to come out.

 

[patrick12]

darkmage12 said:
Well if your friend is of Muslim religion it seems that it would be virtually impossible to get a passport now. I'm checking with some SOE which have projects abroad to see if they can issue working order to him. Then use that country to issue Visa for him to come out.
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thanks so much!

 

[Marc Rich]

I have seen similar cases with stateless Syrians. The only option is to do an African passport first, that your friend has ID and birth certificate is good start.

You can definitely forget about Antigua or Vanuatu with no first passport.

 

[darkmage12]

patrick12 said:
thanks so much!
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I actually found a solution but the only issue is the China person have to cross border themselves. Most of them will go through land border crossing into Hanoi without the use of a passport.

 

[MiddleEuroAsia]

Marc Rich said:
I have seen similar cases with stateless Syrians. The only option is to do an African passport first, that your friend has ID and birth certificate is good start.

You can definitely forget about Antigua or Vanuatu with no first passport.
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While it's true that some stateless Syrians have had success with African passports and sometimes, Turkish passports, we've actually had clients who were able to obtain a Vanuatu passport with just their ID.

It's definitely a more difficult and expensive process, and we do recommend having the right connections in Vanuatu to help with the application. However, it's not impossible and we've seen it work for other clients in the past.

You're banned for whatever reason, but I Just wanted to clarify that for others who may be following this thread.

Last edited: Feb 28, 2023