Stock Trading Bank & Trading Set Up

[Baron]

Good Morning, Afternoon or Evening To All,

After a few years of conducting my own research into structuring a "Business Model" that allows me the discreet possibility of Trading the World Stock Markets and Commodity Futures and the odd Forex, without drawing the attention of authorities in my country of residence; Australia.

I have contemplated structuring a Trust and Company, both in different jurisdictions in the world. The options are endless, however my sticking point is the Banking and Trading aspect. I need to find a "Physical Bank" with good standards and one which allows international clients like myself to set up a business account for Share Trading. Also, a broker who accepts Ninja Trading Platform or one that offers trading straight from your screen when I want to place orders with just a click of the mouse on the price graph; like Ninja trader does.

All the above accounts I am searching for would need to NOT HAVE - 1. Double Tax Treaties. 2. Non CRS Reporting with Australia. 3. Don't require Tax File Number to set up Bank Account or Trading Account. (Maybe I am asking a lot, but in the past I have heard of some Traders who are using just what I am describing).

I reside in Australia and I am Trading the Financial Markets and require more privacy and protection and therefore would like to form offshore Trust and Company businesses with Bank Accounts. (Do not want tax minimization, but to avoid Authorities totally).

Please see my details of what I am interested in and questions that I would like answers to, please.
1. I am interested in the following: (Formation of Company).
2. I am interested in the following: (Formation of Trust).
3. I will require the following: Open Two Business Bank Accounts. One of them to have a International Equities / Futures / Options / Brokerage Account with a Trading Platform. The Other Bank Account for transferring money in and out.
4. I am interested in Trust and Company Formations in order to create layers for greater protection.
5. Nominee services with Power of Attorney and Declaration of Trust in order to give me full control but at arms distance, if possible.
6. Corporate Seal with company.
7. Transfer clauses to make it easier to move to another jurisdiction if need be.
8. Physical Banks (Bricks & Mortar).

I have been contemplating Bank Accounts in Dominic Republic for its Non-CRS reporting. Skopje North Macedonian Silkroad bank Non-CRS reporting.
But I have yet to find a reputable brokerage firm that fulfills my requirements and has a suitable trading platform.

I have looked into Puerto Rico, not that interested.

Having read the forums for the past 12 months as just a member I am lead to believe that as a Gold Member, there is better assistance to my requirements as the ELITE players are only in the Gold Member section.

I look forward to your responses.

Last edited: Mar 1, 2022

 

[Martin Everson]

Your not asking for a lot....lol.

Baron said:
I have contemplated structuring a Trust and Company, both in different jurisdictions in the world.
Click to expand...

Ok firstly a trust will not protect you from CRS reporting as UBO is reported.

Baron said:
All the above accounts I am searching for would need to NOT HAVE - 1. Double Tax Treaties. 2. Non CRS Reporting with Australia. 3. Don't require Tax File Number to set up Bank Account or Trading Account. (Maybe I am asking a lot, but in the past I have heard of some Traders who are using just what I am describing).
Click to expand...

This will next to impossible going forward. And yes you are asking the impossible to do this all legally.

Baron said:
Please see my details of what I am interested in and questions that I would like answers to, please.
1. I am interested in the following: (Formation of Company).
2. I am interested in the following: (Formation of Trust).
3. I will require the following: Open Two Business Bank Accounts. One of them to have a International Equities / Futures / Options / Brokerage Account with a Trading Platform. The Other Bank Account for transferring money in and out.
4. I am interested in Trust and Company Formations in order to create layers for greater protection.
5. Nominee services with Power of Attorney and Declaration of Trust in order to give me full control but at arms distance, if possible.
6. Corporate Seal with company.
7. Transfer clauses to make it easier to move to another jurisdiction if need be.
8. Physical Banks (Bricks & Mortar).
Click to expand...

Even with a Trust with company as settlor of the Trust it will offer no protection to CRS once a bank is added to structure. The bank needs to know UBO.

Baron said:
I have been contemplating Bank Accounts in Dominic Republic for its Non-CRS reporting. Skopje North Macedonian Silkroad bank Non-CRS reporting.
But I have yet to find a reputable brokerage firm that fulfills my requirements and has a suitable trading platform.
Click to expand...

Yes non-CRS countries may work in short term but won't last long. Even the obscure brokers I used in Asia are now reporting. The sort of one click buy/sell graph trading is not easy to find amongst banks/brokers in those places who are more likely to use white labels of IB or Saxobank platforms at best.


What you ultimately want to achieve is to have a bank and brokerage account outside CRS. There is no legal magic wand to achieve that. It will require you to physically relocate to some tax free country. What I have seen others do on the forum however is get paper residency as self employed, remote worker or whatever in a place like Dubai and use that for all opening of banks and brokerage accounts. A trust and company while sat in Oz will simply not work as UBO factor does not go away with a trust and company. The address and Tax ID issue are going to become nearly impossible to overcome in future.

Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear but better to hear truth than some fake solution that will land you in hot water.

Toggle signature
Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[Baron]

Good Morning,

Thank you for the reply.

Your point about "seen others on the forum get a paper residency as self employed, remote worker or whatever in a place like Dubai and use that for all opening of banks and brokerage accounts". Still does not avoid tax with Double Tax Treaty arrangement with Australia. That is pointless as I would still be paying full tax in Australia.

Unless I am mistaken, and you disagree, please enlighten me on the advantages of such a set up.

Thank you once again for your time.

 

[Sols]

Paper residencies are indeed pointless. It's just something a lot of people to do ”” for now ”” evade CRS by hoping banks don't engage in multi-jurisdictional reporting. Those who don't get their affairs in order in time will regret it sooner or later.

I don't think that what you want is possible without relying on secrecy (which is eroding, CRS is growing), lack of enforcement (Australia is often considered among the best in the world at cracking down tax evasion), and luck ”” neither of which would likely make for a legal arrangement. Given the fragile state of secrecy and the future erosion, it's wise to plan for a structure that holds up to scrutiny ”” not one that relies on avoiding scrutiny. Also factor in the risk of data leaks.

If you can relocate away from Australia, that's the golden ticket.

Baron said:
Please see my details of what I am interested in and questions that I would like answers to, please.
1. I am interested in the following: (Formation of Company).
2. I am interested in the following: (Formation of Trust).
3. I will require the following: Open Two Business Bank Accounts. One of them to have a International Equities / Futures / Options / Brokerage Account with a Trading Platform. The Other Bank Account for transferring money in and out.
4. I am interested in Trust and Company Formations in order to create layers for greater protection.
Click to expand...

So far so good, this is all doable. Depends on risk categorisation, amounts involved, and so on but by and large no show-stoppers.

Baron said:
5. Nominee services with Power of Attorney and Declaration of Trust in order to give me full control but at arms distance, if possible.
Click to expand...

This is one point where it all can fall apart. When the tax man looks at your structure and sees you have a Power of Attorney, it's extremely unlikely they'd draw any other conclusion than that the company and/or trust are yours and thereby resident in Australia for tax purposes.

Baron said:
I have been contemplating Bank Accounts in Dominic Republic for its Non-CRS reporting. Skopje North Macedonian Silkroad bank Non-CRS reporting.
Click to expand...

They are non-CRS because they haven't been a priority yet, not because they are fighting against the evil OECD. Whether it's one, two, or five years from now, they will join CRS.

Toggle signature
This is the probably the answer to your question.

 

[Baron]

Good Afternoon,

Thank you for the reply.

If your suggestion is to "Plan for a structure that holds up to scrutiny".

Then do tell, how to best achieve this through your suggestion.

Or whom can I get in contact with that can elaborate further and assist, as I have a plan but would like to hear what you or someone "more" experienced in this area has to suggest. Either way you or others must have come across the above scenario many times and have had solutions to assist.

 

[Sols]

My suggestion is going to be quite boring, but it's what everyone else in your situation does: speak with a lawyer. Specifically, lawyers and trustees that are familiar with this within the narrow scope permitted by Australian law. This is such a regulatory and legal mine field that you need guidance not just from people who know the ins and outs of Australia and its regulations.

I've come across Australians enough times in this context to see a pattern. Those who can leave, leave. Those who don't, pay full tax bill. And then there are those who stuck around, broke the law, and found out.

The only Australian lawyers I can recall having come across in international tax matters are Ashurst, DLA Piper, and Corrs.

You can also start at the other end: speak with Southpac Trust, Asiaciti Trust, Vistra, or OCRA. They aren't Australian lawyers but they are the kind of people Australian lawyers typically work with to set up structures.

Toggle signature
This is the probably the answer to your question.

 

[Martin Everson]

Baron said:
Still does not avoid tax with Double Tax Treaty arrangement with Australia. That is pointless as I would still be paying full tax in Australia.

Unless I am mistaken, and you disagree, please enlighten me on the advantages of such a set up.
Click to expand...

This is not true. It highly depends in which country you are buying shares in to determine the DTA arrangement with UAE. For example its favorable to buy UK shares when resident in UAE due to DTA but not US shares. It is not worth mentioning DTA's without firstly deciding where to be tax resident.

In end you need to relocate. There is nothing you can setup or that a lawyer can tell you that won't be construed as tax avoidance by taxman while resident in Oz sadly.

Good luck.

Toggle signature
Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[Baron]

We may have to disagree.

From speaking to an Accountant about the scenario, and doing my own research the Australian Taxation Office would only look at where you reside to conduct your business dealings. So having accounts overseas and buying shares listed in the UK, or USA or anywhere else is irrelevant by the ATO. The person transacting the buy or sell order is what counts.

So what you are suggesting may have been stated to you by someone or you may have discovered this theory on your own but here in Australia "It won't cut the mustard".

This is why I was lead to believe that the "Gold Mentor Group" is the best place to find answers to hard questions.

With all due respect, it is starting to look like that I have "Blown" my money, as so far no one has really been able to add any further knowledge on my topic, that I already knew.

 

[Martin Everson]

Baron said:
From speaking to an Accountant about the scenario, and doing my own research the Australian Taxation Office would only look at where you reside to conduct your business dealings. So having accounts overseas and buying shares listed in the UK, or USA or anywhere else is irrelevant by the ATO. The person transacting the buy or sell order is what counts.
Click to expand...

I have already mentioned changing residency from day one. Not sure what your point is here.

Baron said:
So what you are suggesting may have been stated to you by someone or you may have discovered this theory on your own but here in Australia "It won't cut the mustard".
Click to expand...

No it was not.

Baron said:
This is why I was lead to believe that the "Gold Mentor Group" is the best place to find answers to hard questions.
Click to expand...

It is.

Baron said:
With all due respect, it is starting to look like that I have "Blown" my money, as so far no one has really been able to add any further knowledge on my topic, that I already knew.
Click to expand...

There is no magic or miracles if that is what you were hoping for. If your not willing to relocate then your out of luck when it comes to legal means. You can always ask about alternate means and someone can help there maybe.

Toggle signature
Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[Sols]

Just because a problem exist, doesn't guarantee a solution exists.

As I said, I have come across Australians looking to save on tax before. In my experience, only those who have actually left Australia have been able to do it.

Baron said:
We may have to disagree.

From speaking to an Accountant about the scenario, and doing my own research the Australian Taxation Office would only look at where you reside to conduct your business dealings. So having accounts overseas and buying shares listed in the UK, or USA or anywhere else is irrelevant by the ATO. The person transacting the buy or sell order is what counts.

So what you are suggesting may have been stated to you by someone or you may have discovered this theory on your own but here in Australia "It won't cut the mustard".
Click to expand...

Maybe, but in this case it's backed up with years and years of experience in the field. And all that experience leads to one conclusion: relocate and/or speak with a local lawyer specialised in tax affairs. We say this because we know the dangers of taking action based on advice from people who aren't experts on applicable law.

Baron said:
This is why I was lead to believe that the "Gold Mentor Group" is the best place to find answers to hard questions.
Click to expand...

You're asking things that are specific to Australian law, though. We've reached a level of detail where you need someone to look at your unique, specific circumstances to work our a structure inline with Australian law.

We're happy to share insights and experiences, but no one here can ”” or should ”” substitute legal advice from a local lawyer.

Baron said:
With all due respect, it is starting to look like that I have "Blown" my money, as so far no one has really been able to add any further knowledge on my topic, that I already knew.
Click to expand...

You've been provided with names of lawyers and service providers.

Do you want someone who isn't an expert on Australian tax law to propose a structure?

Or is your intent to break the law? Then it's a completely different discussion, where you need to consider that a little bit of tax evasion can quickly turn into fraud and money laundering charges. As I prefer to sleep well at night, it's something I stay far away from.

Toggle signature
This is the probably the answer to your question.

 

[Baron]

Good Evening,

Once again, thank you for your response.

On the sentence: "You've been provided with names of lawyers and service providers."

Did I miss one of your replies?

As I did not see any Lawyers NAMES or specific Service Providers.

If you did state them in your previous e-mails, I apologise, but I have looked and still could not find any names you stated.

Thank you

 

[Sols]

Post #6 in this thread lists a few.

https://www.offshorecorptalk.com/threads/stock-trading-bank-trading-set-up.36617/#post-204084

Toggle signature
This is the probably the answer to your question.

 

[Baron]

Good Morning,

Again I thank you for taking the time to reply.

The ones you stated: "Southpac Trust, Asiaciti Trust" I did make contact with in 2020 and 2021 with little joy.

The others you have suggested, I will endeavour to make contact with and gauge whether they can assist or direct me in another direction.

It is a bit disappointing that you are doing the bulk of the replies, and I commend you on assisting.
However I would have expected that the Gold Membership would be in the Thousands, and others are keeping their cards close to their chest and may know other avenues and are not willing to add to your replies.

Again, thanks.

 

[Baron]

Sols said:
Paper residencies are indeed pointless. It's just something a lot of people to do ”” for now ”” evade CRS by hoping banks don't engage in multi-jurisdictional reporting. Those who don't get their affairs in order in time will regret it sooner or later.

I don't think that what you want is possible without relying on secrecy (which is eroding, CRS is growing), lack of enforcement (Australia is often considered among the best in the world at cracking down tax evasion), and luck ”” neither of which would likely make for a legal arrangement. Given the fragile state of secrecy and the future erosion, it's wise to plan for a structure that holds up to scrutiny ”” not one that relies on avoiding scrutiny. Also factor in the risk of data leaks.

If you can relocate away from Australia, that's the golden ticket.


So far so good, this is all doable. Depends on risk categorisation, amounts involved, and so on but by and large no show-stoppers.


This is one point where it all can fall apart. When the tax man looks at your structure and sees you have a Power of Attorney, it's extremely unlikely they'd draw any other conclusion than that the company and/or trust are yours and thereby resident in Australia for tax purposes.


They are non-CRS because they haven't been a priority yet, not because they are fighting against the evil OECD. Whether it's one, two, or five years from now, they will join CRS.
Click to expand...

I would like if you could extrapolate further on your suggestion "Plan for a structure that holds up to scrutiny".

So please outline in detail your plan, please

 

[aage]

Baron said:
It is a bit disappointing that you are doing the bulk of the replies, and I commend you on assisting.
However I would have expected that the Gold Membership would be in the Thousands, and others are keeping their cards close to their chest and may know other avenues and are not willing to add to your replies.
Click to expand...

You get some really good advise from our leaders in offshore structures who have donated their time to help you with very accurate and clear information, and still complain about the help you have received?

Did you expect that we can conjure away all the world's tax problems with one "post"?

If you read throughout the posts made here, bottom line is that you will have to relocate if you want to avoid taxes in Australia or you go with a Trust or other professional service and incur the risk.

 

[Baron]

aage said:
You get some really good advise from our leaders in offshore structures who have donated their time to help you with very accurate and clear information, and still complain about the help you have received?

Did you expect that we can conjure away all the world's tax problems with one "post"?

If you read throughout the posts made here, bottom line is that you will have to relocate if you want to avoid taxes in Australia or you go with a Trust or other professional service and incur the risk.
Click to expand...

Steady on cowboy.

You spruik the fantastic "Gold" membership members will help with all your questions, only the Gold Membership will be able to assist those that want in-depth answers.

Clearly English was, and is not your strong suit, as I have not complained.
I merely made a statement of opinion based on TWO members answers.

Where are the so called Gold Members with their input?

If you think someone makes an observation about a LARGE organization, with so many so called GOLD Members is complaining, then you should re-educate yourself in what is a complaint and what is not., no clearly have no clue.

I did not direct any insults towards anyone, but you seem to have taken offense, which only strengthens my resolve, that the GOLD Membership is nothing more than a money grabbing opportunity; if only TWO or THREE people in such a large organisation reply with constructive answers.

Oh, did you not forget, I did thank them for their support and replies.

Grab some English Literature material and familiarize yourself with the Queens English: you need the help, and relax and have a drink or go away.

 

[Sols]

Baron said:
So please outline in detail your plan, please
Click to expand...

But, why?

Why would you want a plan that isn't checked against Australian law?

Even so, the detailed plans I have seen and that work have in zero cases involved the UBO remaining resident in Australia. In fact, they nearly always involve relocation to a tax haven of some sort within reach of the UBO's means. The few times the UBO remains resident is where local tax laws have loopholes, lack enforcement (UBO takes a calculated risk), or the UBO has enough means to set up a sole permanent establishment for their business in a tax haven. The latter is usually limited to cases where taxes on wealth and income exceed the costs of setting up an office with full-time employees in a low tax jurisdiction.

Since that doesn't work in your case, the plan is easy. Speak with lawyers that know the specific, applicable laws. Because I wouldn't want the UBO to end up saving on taxes by being deprived of income through incarceration. There are better, legal ways to avoid taxation.

Baron said:
Where are the so called Gold Members with their input?
Click to expand...

I'd interpret silence from others as agreement. It's crystal clear to everyone that what you want is on such a detailed level, you need to be speaking with attorneys that know Australian law. They will repeat a lot of what Martin and I have already written, though.

I'm sorry if you thought you would be getting the equivalent to tens of hours of work by top-tier international tax planners and law firms here, but this forum isn't a substitute for legal advice. We're happy to share experiences and names of known good service providers, though.

Baron said:
Grab some English Literature material and familiarize yourself with the Queens English: you need the help, and relax and have a drink or go away.
Click to expand...

BTW, it's Queen's English not Queens English. Fortunately, we focus more on substance than on grammar and spelling here. 😉

Last edited: Mar 23, 2022
Toggle signature
This is the probably the answer to your question.

 

[Baron]

Sols said:
But, why?

Why would you want a plan that isn't checked against Australian law?

Even so, the detailed plans I have seen and that work have in zero cases involved the UBO remaining resident in Australia. In fact, they nearly always involve relocation to a tax haven of some sort within reach of the UBO's means. The few times the UBO remains resident is where local tax laws have loopholes, lack enforcement (UBO takes a calculated risk), or the UBO has enough means to set up a sole permanent establishment for their business in a tax haven. The latter is usually limited to cases where taxes on wealth and income exceed the costs of setting up an office with full-time employees in a low tax jurisdiction.

Since that doesn't work in your case, the plan is easy. Speak with lawyers that know the specific, applicable laws. Because I wouldn't want the UBO to end up saving on taxes by being deprived of income through incarceration. There are better, legal ways to avoid taxation.


I'd interpret silence from others as agreement. It's crystal clear to everyone that what you want is on such a detailed level, you need to be speaking with attorneys that know Australian law. They will repeat a lot of what Martin and I have already written, though.

I'm sorry if you thought you would be getting the equivalent to tens of hours of work by top-tier international tax planners and law firms here, but this forum isn't a substitute for legal advice. We're happy to share experiences and names of known good service providers, though.


BTW, it's Queen's English not Queens English. Fortunately, we focus more on substance than on grammar and spelling here. 😉
Click to expand...

So Sol,

It is disappointing that you are defending "aage".

Then you reply with semantics as well?

Really, that is a shame.

Sol,

To your question: Why would you want a plan that isn't checked against Australian law?

If you do have plans, checking against the Australian legal system would be up to me.

When you have plans to build a house, the plans require engineering plans for the foundations and the structural integrity.

Not all house plans can be built in every country, on every soil, or on every rock bed.

However plans can be adjusted to suit the conditions.

What is required is obtaining a "Geo-technical Report", to ascertain the site conditions; soil structure, what type of bearing pressure and movement of settlement, etc.
Then you would discuss with an engineer what foundations you would need to support the "house" that you want built.

Once you obtain that report, and the engineer plans, then changes can be made to the "House Plans" that you have, to accommodate the site conditions.

So again, I ask, if you have plans, please outline them, so I can garnish what needs to be changed with the relevant people here in Australia, to accommodate my conditions.

Unless, you have no plans.

Last edited: Mar 23, 2022

 

[pesto]

Baron said:
So again, I ask, if you have plans, please outline them, so I can garnish what needs to be changed with the relevant people here in Australia, to accommodate my conditions.
Click to expand...

Once you get a answer here I wonder if this isn't a question for a local tax advisor.

 

[Baron]

Hello Pesto,

As you can see, its all smoke and daggers with Sol, as he and others that have replied, have no plans.

Its all a "Mirage", an illusion to gain people's trust in believing that all can be found in the Gold Membership.

These are not my words, but in the commentary that they have posted in the past.

It is a shame, as I wanted to give them an opportunity to deliver on what they claim. and then I would sing their praises.

Oh well, they are only after a sugar hit of peoples membership money so they can take, but not give back.

I still wait in hope that I am wrong, but as time passes, I doubt they have an credibility at all.