I can't prove the origin of my bitcoins, problems with Spanish Ministry of Finance

[Josevbtc]

Hi all!

First, I am SPANISH, and my English is not very good, I am sorry and I hope you all understand all I write here.

I bought bitcoin from a seller on Facebook in 2014. I sent him CASH from a bank (not my bank).

6 years later (today) the BIG problem here is I can not prove origin of my bitcoins, so, if I sell them to euro and I send euro to my bank, the finance ministry will ask me where I got so much money. And since I cannot prove the origin of the money, it is very possible that I have to pay about 50% of taxes. 50%!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am trying to find a solution... I could go to Portugal or Andorra (countries near Spain), I could live there for 6 months, and pay taxes there (0% Portugal, 10% Andorra) BUT it seems the problem of the origin of my bitcoins remains, and in these countries I could also have problems ... the truth is I am not 100% sure about this, some advisors tell me I will have problems, others advisors say no problem.

I also could use bitcoin ATM and get my money little by little, but I would like to buy a house, and I can not buy a house in Spain with cash... It is not legal.


So, please guys tell me... What can I do?

Thanks. 🙂

 

[rothko13]

In Portugal, you will be safe. My advice: transfer your money little by little and spread it to several bank accounts (always keep in mind the limit of € 100,000 for each bank account, in case the bank goes bankrupt, you will have your money guaranteed by European insurance).

 

[Josevbtc]

rothko13 said:
In Portugal, you will be safe. My advice: transfer your money little by little and spread it to several bank accounts (always keep in mind the limit of € 100,000 for each bank account, in case the bank goes bankrupt, you will have your money guaranteed by European insurance).
Click to expand...

Thanks, but, could Portugal ask about origin of my money? I need to be 100% sure about that, I dont want to live 6 months there, then sell bitcoins to euro, then send them to Portugal bank account and BOOM, money blocked.

 

[rothko13]

If you are a foreigner and establish your residence in Portugal and, for example, buy a property in Portugal, I find it very unlikely that they will question the origin. The important thing is not to attract the attention of the banks and, as I said, to convert your money to euros little by little. Use Kraken or localbitcoins to do this, never use exchanges outside Europe, keep everything within the SEPA network.

 

[anotherone]

You can use Wirex. It is a wallet with Euro and BTC.
you can send BTC to your wirex account and then move it to the euro account of Wirex. Then, you can use the wirex visa card that they send you. Risk = zero

 

[clemens]

how complicated may it be for you to simply produce some invoices, say from your own company or ask one of us here at OffshoreCorpTalk.com to send you invoices from the many fake corps many of us own 😀

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One of my favorit articles in Mentor Group ~ Sending money anonymously archieve Financial Anonymity

 

[GrumpyMess]

Josevbtc said:
I could live there for 6 months, and pay taxes there (0% Portugal
Click to expand...

why 0%?

 

[aage]

What you say is, you only need to prove 1 transaction or how many are you in need of?

 

[Martin Everson]

Josevbtc said:
And since I cannot prove the origin of the money, it is very possible that I have to pay about 50% of taxes. 50%!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

If you made substantial profit on the purchase of bitcoin is it really that bad to pay the tax and have peace of mind?

For example if you bought bitcoin in 2014 for around $500 and with price today around $9,000 you would still have made a good profit after any taxes owed and you can sleep at night.

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[Nicholas Van Orton]

anotherone said:
You can use Wirex. It is a wallet with Euro and BTC.
you can send BTC to your wirex account and then move it to the euro account of Wirex. Then, you can use the wirex visa card that they send you. Risk = zero
Click to expand...

Been there, done that. Best answer to OP thus far and it does really solve his issue. I don't think the current environment in Spain will benefit those who make good money on investments, if they can bleed you dry, they will (rolling backtaxes included, which is 'popular' amongst PIIGS).

 

[Josevbtc]

Thank you guys! Like I said on my first message, my English is not good, I hope you all understand my answers. 🙂

rothko13 said:
If you are a foreigner and establish your residence in Portugal and, for example, buy a property in Portugal, I find it very unlikely that they will question the origin. The important thing is not to attract the attention of the banks and, as I said, to convert your money to euros little by little. Use Kraken or localbitcoins to do this, never use exchanges outside Europe, keep everything within the SEPA network.
Click to expand...

Well, you said, very unlikely... so, there is a risk, maybe only a bit of risk but I could lose my money. When you said "convert yout money to euros little by little", what is exactly little by little? 1000 euros per day? 1000 euro per month?

anotherone said:
You can use Wirex. It is a wallet with Euro and BTC.
you can send BTC to your wirex account and then move it to the euro account of Wirex. Then, you can use the wirex visa card that they send you. Risk = zero
Click to expand...

I think wirex is a good idea to spend a bit every day, but I would like to buy a HOUSE!, I think I can not use wirex to buy a house. (well I am not sure)

clemens said:
how complicated may it be for you to simply produce some invoices, say from your own company or ask one of us here at OffshoreCorpTalk.com to send you invoices from the many fake corps many of us own 😀
Click to expand...

Lol... yes, I can do that, but first I would like to try something legal... Not sure in your country but here in Spain you can go to jail!.

GrumpyMess said:
why 0%?
Click to expand...

You will pay 0% taxes from crypto if you are living in Spain (or country from EU) and you go 6 months to Portugal and you rent a house, pay your bills there, etc...

aage said:
What you say is, you only need to prove 1 transaction or how many are you in need of?
Click to expand...

I am not sure about that. I dont know how to prove the origin of my bitcoins, It is easy if you bought sending money to exchanges and buying bitcoin, but I was stupid and I bought my btc from a vendor on facebook... Ministry of finance never wrote about how to prove the origin of my btc, but some advisors told me I will have problems if I pay taxex here... So, I dont know if I need to prove some bitcoin transactions or prove something different.

Martin Everson said:
If you made substantial profit on the purchase of bitcoin is it really that bad to pay the tax and have peace of mind?

For example if you bought bitcoin in 2014 for around $500 and with price today around $9,000 you would still have made a good profit after any taxes owed and you can sleep at night.
Click to expand...

LOL, YES!!! its really bad!!! 50%!!!! man, think about that, if I make 500.000 euro, I can buy a house here on Spain and lives forever with my money BUT if I pay 250.000 euro to ministry of finance, I only can buy a house and maybe some penauts... Maybe I dont care to pay 50% taxes if I make 5 millions, because I will be happy with "only" 2.5 millions euro but I think I only will sell my btc for a few hundreds.

 

[aage]

Josevbtc said:
I am not sure about that. I dont know how to prove the origin of my bitcoins, It is easy if you bought sending money to exchanges and buying bitcoin, but I was stupid and I bought my btc from a vendor on facebook... Ministry of finance never wrote about how to prove the origin of my btc, but some advisors told me I will have problems if I pay taxex here... So, I dont know if I need to prove some bitcoin transactions or prove something different.
Click to expand...

you need to speak with an tax advisor in Spain but usually if you have a invoice where you buy btc for some amount of euros it should be fine or if you get a exchange bill showing you exchanged X amount of euro to btc. This only need to be from a other valid company.

 

[Martin Everson]

Josevbtc said:
LOL, YES!!! its really bad!!! 50%!!!! man, think about that, if I make 500.000 euro, I can buy a house here on Spain and lives forever with my money BUT if I pay 250.000 euro to ministry of finance, I only can buy a house and maybe some penauts... Maybe I dont care to pay 50% taxes if I make 5 millions, because I will be happy with "only" 2.5 millions euro but I think I only will sell my btc for a few hundreds.
Click to expand...

Can't you prove you acquired the bitcoin in 2014 via old Facebook communication or something? Then you would only be liable for capital gains tax. Capital gains tax in Spain starts from 19% to a max of 23%.

• Up to 6.000 Euros, the tax rate is 19%.
• From 6.000 to 50.000 Euros, the tax rate is 21%.
• From 50.000 Euros an up, the tax rate is 23%.

Toggle signature
Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.

 

[Aten]

You can say your btc origin is from mining. At that time period i think mining was possible even without specialized devices. You can say you did it because you are tech passionate and now that btc is up you want to cashout your winnings. If you pay taxes , in whatever country i think there will be no red flags. I advise to pay taxes only that much as you need to buy a house and keep the rest in cash.

 

[KJK]

Josevbtc said:
I think wirex is a good idea to spend a bit every day, but I would like to buy a HOUSE!, I think I can not use wirex to buy a house. (well I am not sure)
Click to expand...

I have just two comments for you.

1) I know at least two people who cashed out much higher numbers than you plan, no problems and no questions asked (of course not all at once)
2) no, you cannot buy a house with Wirex but I have another suggestion... How about wait until you'll be able to buy a house with Bitcoin (maybe even 1 Bitcoin)? I don't think having a house in Spain is a great investment, or an investment at all, so you may re-think your plans

 

[Josevbtc]

aage said:
you need to speak with an tax advisor in Spain but usually if you have a invoice where you buy btc for some amount of euros it should be fine or if you get a exchange bill showing you exchanged X amount of euro to btc. This only need to be from a other valid company.
Click to expand...

I have not invoice or exchange bill but....maybe can I get a fake invoice?

Martin Everson said:
Can't you prove you acquired the bitcoin in 2014 via old Facebook communication or something? Then you would only be liable for capital gains tax. Capital gains tax in Spain starts from 19% to a max of 23%.

• Up to 6.000 Euros, the tax rate is 19%.
• From 6.000 to 50.000 Euros, the tax rate is 21%.
• From 50.000 Euros an up, the tax rate is 23%.

Click to expand...

I have facebook private message with seller, some advisors told me I can prove origin of my btc with that but other advisor said I can not prove it, so...

Yes I know about capital gains on Spain, but I would like to pay 0 in Portugal. 🙂

Aten said:
You can say your btc origin is from mining. At that time period i think mining was possible even without specialized devices. You can say you did it because you are tech passionate and now that btc is up you want to cashout your winnings. If you pay taxes , in whatever country i think there will be no red flags. I advise to pay taxes only that much as you need to buy a house and keep the rest in cash.
Click to expand...

This could be a good idea... I will try to get some info about hoe miners pat taxes here in Spain. And yes, If I finally pay taxes here, I will buy my house and I will try to get a ton of cash.

KJK said:
I have just two comments for you.

1) I know at least two people who cashed out much higher numbers than you plan, no problems and no questions asked (of course not all at once)
2) no, you cannot buy a house with Wirex but I have another suggestion... How about wait until you'll be able to buy a house with Bitcoin (maybe even 1 Bitcoin)? I don't think having a house in Spain is a great investment, or an investment at all, so you may re-think your plans
Click to expand...

Well, a cheap/medium house here is around 200.000 euro (a lot of money here), I will be happy if I can buy one and get some money to live happy with no job.





Guys, I meet some guys yesterday on telegram, they said the best thing I can do is go to Switzerland. They said I will pay 0 taxes and Switzerland banks dont care too much about origin of bitcoins... What do you think about that?


Thanks for your answers again, guys! 🙂

 

[Josevbtc]

aage said:
you need to speak with an tax advisor in Spain but usually if you have a invoice where you buy btc for some amount of euros it should be fine or if you get a exchange bill showing you exchanged X amount of euro to btc. This only need to be from a other valid company.
Click to expand...

I have not invoice or exchange bill but....maybe can I get a fake invoice?

Martin Everson said:
Can't you prove you acquired the bitcoin in 2014 via old Facebook communication or something? Then you would only be liable for capital gains tax. Capital gains tax in Spain starts from 19% to a max of 23%.

• Up to 6.000 Euros, the tax rate is 19%.
• From 6.000 to 50.000 Euros, the tax rate is 21%.
• From 50.000 Euros an up, the tax rate is 23%.

Click to expand...

I have facebook private message with seller, some advisors told me I can prove origin of my btc with that but other advisor said I can not prove it, so...

Yes I know about capital gains on Spain, but I would like to pay 0 in Portugal. 🙂

Aten said:
You can say your btc origin is from mining. At that time period i think mining was possible even without specialized devices. You can say you did it because you are tech passionate and now that btc is up you want to cashout your winnings. If you pay taxes , in whatever country i think there will be no red flags. I advise to pay taxes only that much as you need to buy a house and keep the rest in cash.
Click to expand...

This could be a good idea... I will try to get some info about how miners pay taxes here in Spain. And yes, If I finally pay taxes here, I will buy my house and I will try to get a ton of cash.

KJK said:
I have just two comments for you.

1) I know at least two people who cashed out much higher numbers than you plan, no problems and no questions asked (of course not all at once)
2) no, you cannot buy a house with Wirex but I have another suggestion... How about wait until you'll be able to buy a house with Bitcoin (maybe even 1 Bitcoin)? I don't think having a house in Spain is a great investment, or an investment at all, so you may re-think your plans
Click to expand...

Well, a cheap/medium house here is around 200.000 euro (a lot of money here), I will be happy if I can buy one and get some money to live happy with no job.





Guys, I meet some guys yesterday on telegram, they said the best thing I can do is go to Switzerland. They said I will pay 0 taxes and Switzerland banks dont care too much about origin of bitcoins... What do you think about that?


Thanks for your answers again, guys! 🙂

 

[KJK]

Josevbtc said:
I have not invoice or exchange bill but....maybe can I get a fake invoice?
Click to expand...

Do not create fake invoices, it is a stupid idea and honestly you do not need it.

Josevbtc said:
I have facebook private message with seller, some advisors told me I can prove origin of my btc with that but other advisor said I can not prove it, so...

Yes I know about capital gains on Spain, but I would like to pay 0 in Portugal. 🙂
Click to expand...

Well, is something blocking you from moving to Portugal? Cut ties with Spain, move, solve your things, only then sell your crypto.

Josevbtc said:
Well, a cheap/medium house here is around 200.000 euro (a lot of money here), I will be happy if I can buy one and get some money to live happy with no job.
Click to expand...

So your goal in life is to buy a cheap house in some Spanish 2nd-tier town and live with no job?

Josevbtc said:
Guys, I meet some guys yesterday on telegram, they said the best thing I can do is go to Switzerland. They said I will pay 0 taxes and Switzerland banks dont care too much about origin of bitcoins... What do you think about that?
Click to expand...

These "guys on telegram" are either retards or scammers, or both. Banks in Switzerland care A LOT about source of funds, pretty sure they care more than your local Spanish bank.

Also as of 2020 it makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE for you (as Spanish guy&resident) whether you bank in Spain or in Switzerland. Swiss bank will be more expensive and won't offer you absolutely anything extra, does not change your tax liability, does not hide your money. Sure there are some crypto-friendly banks (Frick, Falcon...) but they mostly deal with 1M+ or 10M+. Educate yourself and learn that no such thing as "bank secrecy" exists nowadays in Europe, Switzerland is very compliant and exchanging all information.

 

[andres33]

If I was in your skin, I would try to buy gold in Bullion star in singapore. They accept bitcoins. They can send you the gold where you want. In part when you resell your gold, you will have a prove of your founds. You can send your gold to switzerland, and there, you can keep it in a bank or in a special deposit. It's no very complicate to find it. You open an account in Suisse and you deposit the amount of your gold.
Forget to buy now a flat in Spain. It's a very bad country in this moment for that. It's a comunist country.
Buy or perhaps better rent a flat in Portugal. After 2 or 3 years if you see that Portugal are good for you, you can try to buy.

 

[Martin Everson]

I agree with KJK. As someone that banks in Switzerland it is a waste of time in 2020 and an expensive exercise in dealing with the pedantic Swiss nature of banking. Swiss banks offer nothing of value today...not stability not anything sadly. UBS was bailed out by government during last crisis and CS had to beg for arab money from to prevent also being bailed out...that says it all 🙁.

Josevbtc said:
Well, a cheap/medium house here is around 200.000 euro (a lot of money here), I will be happy if I can buy one and get some money to live happy with no job.
Click to expand...

Have you ever owned a house before and dealt with running costs? If you have done your maths then yes you can live happily ever after. If not that house will become a mill stone around your neck and a money pit.

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Please note my posts should not be taken as financial or tax advice. Please seek professional advice in that respect.