Control a nominee director and UBO + avoid VAT problems + avoid bank problems

pippo

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Dec 30, 2019
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I own and manage company A, and I need to sell services to company C.

Due to business reasons, I do not want anybody to be able to trace the deal directly from A to C, nor anybody to be able to trace my person in connection with any business held with company C.

I therefore want to incorporate a company B to act as a middleman, hence the trade being A to B to C.

Company B is owned and directed by a nominee.

The trading volume will be in the range of some hundreds of thousands of euros, possibly hitting the million within one year of activity.

As company A and company C are both in EU countries, I need company B to be in a different, third EU country to avoid triggering any VAT.

The setup poses a few problems, and I'm looking for the most suitable solutions:


  1. I won't be performing any illegal activity, nor having a missing trader / carousel scheme in place. Nevertheless, I'd be exchanging a relatively high amount of services and money with an EU triangulation

  2. How can I guarantee that the nominee of Company B does not access the funds? Ideally, I have all the internet banking credential. Still, he can walk in any of the banks I'm using, claim the credential have been stolen or compromised, and reset the whole system. I lose access, he gains it. I'm screwed

  3. Money will flow fast on company B's bank accounts. As in, 10k in in the morning, 10k out by the evening. The money flow will be constant from A to B to C, hence from country A to country B to country C. I wonder if this can pose any doubt to the financial institutions involved.

To solve problem #1, and avoid triggering any of the extremely harsh VAT fraud mechanism, I need to use a legit nominee and ensure both company A and company C perform a thorough due diligence on company B. Taking all the needed steps (UBO and director verification, proof of service, proof of payment, respecting the average market price etc...) will allow all the companies involved (being it A, B or C) to proof the trade is legit in case of any accusation of missing trader/carousel fraud.

To solve problem # 2, I thought about getting a 5% shareholding through darks, and appoint myself as the company treasurer, function performed as an external consultant. As this is not an official positions, that won't show up anywhere. The appointment of the treasurer is disclosed only to the bank(s) of company B, while instructing them not to allow the director to touch a penny. To change the treasurer, the agreement of 100% of the shareholders is required, which the nominee director and UBO cannot accomplish as 5% of the ownership is beyond his control.

Still, that 5% is under the UBO threshold and is not a big issue for banks and for the VAT inspectors, should any suspicion arise.

An alternative to it would be to have a nominee UBO holding 100% of the shares, and a professional director (say, the same accountant of the company), still appointing myself as the company treasurer. In this instance, though, there's always a remote possibility the director to be corrupted by the UBO (or vice versa) and both of them to access the bank accounts and steal the funds.

Both of my solutions to problem #2 seem overly complicated and do not convince me in the end. Any advice to prevent nominee directors to access the funds would be highly appreciated.

Solution to problem #3 would be to setup a reasonable amount of bank accounts and EMI, splitting the turnover on several of them.

The flow would still be quite simultaneous, as in going in and out on the same day, but at least the amount wouldn't be horribly high.

In this case, I would appreciate any advice you may have on the thresholds that can be used.

I also considered the possibility of using an offshore company B. Nevertheless I fear thank would rise many more red flags in comparison to a whole EU scheme.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!
 
A possible additional solution to problem #3, given that all the accounts of company B in country B will be effectively managed by me in country A, would be to setup an own proxy server in country B, and strictly access online banking only through those servers. I don't know whether this can help, or if it's just stupid paranoia
 
pippo said:
Due to business reasons, I do not want anybody to be able to trace the deal directly from A to C, nor anybody to be able to trace my person in connection with any business held with company C.
Click to expand...

By "anybody" do you mean general public, authorities or both?

What are the services your selling exactly?

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General public maybe. Authorities and company C definitely 🙂

I'm selling custom software development, so it's delivered as if it was a product, but it's considered to be a service under EU VAT rules.
 
Also why you want no connection for company A to company C is it common ownership your worried about or something?

I am trying to understand your reasoning. Sometimes the answer is to look at the problem differently but if I don't understand your reason for certain actions it can be difficult to help.

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Feel free to ask anything, you're taking time to help me, so you have all the rights.

I have other businesses in place with the owners of company C, and I do not want them to know I am also a supplier of company C through company A.

Given the multiple business relationships we have, declaring I am the supplier will lead them to a strong negotiation with me, and I'd need to sacrifice my profit margins either on this deal or on the other deals we have in place.

It happened already, and I don't want it to happen again.

As they are negotiating with a brand new company B, and nobody is able to trace company B back to me, the issue is nonexistent.

Furthermore, I don't want government to be able to trace it back to me because... well, the least government knows, the better, just as a rule of thumb 🙂

This is why I thought of a triangulation scheme. I just need to know how to solve the three problems involved, i.e. not loosing control over the money because of an unfaithful nominee, not having problems with authorities, guarantee the banks won't freeze the accounts for any suspicion of illegal activity.
 
Hi,

A Couple of aspects should be considered.

When nominee opens a bank account for company B he will disclose you as an ultimate beneficial owner (UBO) to the bank. None of the licensed and supervised nominees would agree to be identified as UBO (in case you think to use simple LLC or a similar company). It means that you can get full access to your bank account and you can give only viewing rights to the nominee. But the bank will know you as a UBO, it might exchange information, etc. You will protect yourself only from the eyes of the business partners.

Otherwise, possibly you can find some nominee (not licensed body, but just any person) who would agree to be identified as a UBO, but I would not recommend doing this, since first it is illegal (at least from banking regulation perspective), and second ”“ your mentioned risks about stealing your money can be very realistic.

In certain cases banks are not asking about UBO (they indicating director as a “pseudo UBO”) but these are related to much more difficult structuring and probably different business cases.

Second, you should double-check VAT liabilities. Services acquired by company C from company B most likely will be subject to “reverse charge VAT”. If a company is engaged in the activity which allows deducting input VAT it is not an issue. But in such a case I don't see the difference why the company cannot acquire services from company A directly (from VAT perspective).

I hope this helps 😉

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Thanks a lot @Gediminas .

You hit on one of the points I needed some help with.

Basically, if I understand correctly, I have two options:

  1. I disclose my identity as UBO, there's little to no risk anybody notices, as only the bank knows, and I retain full control over the bank accounts

    OR

  2. I do not disclose my identity, the nominee acts as UBO. Finding such a person wouldn't be a problem, the anonimity is full, but unless he's my wife or a highly trusted individual, he can run away with the money

I know that many members of the forum have extensive experience in working with nominee directors, shareholders and UBO. Some of the members use real persons met in real life, some use real darks, some use fake darks. Hence I thought there may be some tool, strategy, scheme or setup that helps me not to lose control of the bank accounts in case solution 2 is chosen.

The treasurer setup mentioned in the original post is the only solution I could think to prevent a "UBO nominee" to run away with the money, it seems quite effective to me but at the same time it looks complicated. Maybe the solution IS complicated, and there's nothing I can do to reduce said complication...

About VAT, you are right: from a VAT perspective nobody would prevent C to buy from A. The case is that C does know who A is, so he buys from B 🙂

All three companies will be registered for VAT so it will just be two transactions instead than one, involving 2 reverse charges instead than one, and being financially neutral for any of the three subjects in the scheme.
 
pippo said:
  1. I disclose my identity as UBO, there's little to no risk anybody notices, as only the bank knows, and I retain full control over the bank accounts

    OR

  2. I do not disclose my identity, the nominee acts as UBO. Finding such a person wouldn't be a problem, the anonimity is full, but unless he's my wife or a highly trusted individual, he can run away with the money
Click to expand...

See my post below on this. No nominee will act as UBO now in EU period. Since January 10th 2020 all banks and obligated entities in EU by EU law must now inform the public registry that you are a UBO of the company or receive a heavy fine and this includes all EU providers of corporate services also. The banks and obligated entities are required to check for discrepancy between the UBO they have on record and the UBO published in the public registry. If they find a difference they update the public UBO registry by law now - not to mention your company will now be on a watch list.

https://www.offshorecorptalk.com/threads/avoid-public-ubo-registry.27417/post-111688
------- quote
Anyone assisting you in not complying with updating the UBO register or concealing ownership will face a fine of up to 1m euros for breach and 1k euro a day for continued breach.

All EU "obligated entities" are responsible for updating the register which will be interconnected with all EU countries. An EU obligated entity is defined as below and is an extensive list:

”˜Obligated Entities', e.g. lawyers, accountants, administration service providers, credit institutions and financial institutions, are responsible to update the Public Registry. The Fifth AML Directive widens the scope of services providers to include: custodian wallet providers, virtual currency and fiat currencies exchange service providers; art dealers (≥€10,000); in addition to auditors, external accountants and tax advisors, any person that provides direct or indirect material aid, assistance or advise on tax matters as principal business or professional activity; and estate agents including when acting as intermediaries in the letting of immovable property (≥€10,000 monthly rent).
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pippo said:
how to avoi a UBO nominee to touch the money?
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You can't in the end.

P.S People think I'm joking when I say get the hell out the EU while you still can.

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pippo said:
Any time frame you can attach to this precious advice?
ASAP is not valid 😛
Click to expand...

Ideally as soon as you hear of any of the following:

1. Amendments to the Exit Taxation law they brought in as part of EU ATAD. Look out for the sort of amendments that not only tax big companies trying to leave an EU country but now tax the actual citizens who try to leave like Poland does right now damn_(.

2. Limiting across the EU of cash amounts that can be withdrawn from an ATM machine ( i.e to < 100 euro amounts) and the banning of banks from accepting cash deposits from retailers for amounts over a very low threshold.

Time frame could be next 10 years or sooner if a financial crisis ensues forcing draconian emergency laws to be enacted...ask Cyprus.

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Martin Everson said:
Ideally as soon as you hear of any of the following:

1. Amendments to the Exit Taxation law they brought in as part of EU ATAD. Look out for the sort of amendments that not only tax big companies trying to leave an EU country but now tax the actual citizens who try to leave like Poland does right now damn_(.

2. Limiting across the EU of cash amounts that can be withdrawn from an ATM machine ( i.e to < 100 euro amounts) and the banning of banks from accepting cash deposits from retailers for amounts over a very low threshold.

Time frame could be next 10 years or sooner if a financial crisis ensues forcing draconian emergency laws to be enacted...ask Cyprus.
Click to expand...

Your story makes sense, but it is not so dramatic as you say. Or I am just a big believer in general.

And you can not compare Cyprus with the remaining of EU. It's just like black and white. 😀

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Gediminas said:
Your story makes sense, but it is not so dramatic as you say. Or I am just a big believer in general.
Click to expand...

I hope I am wrong I really do 😕.

Gediminas said:
And you can not compare Cyprus with the remaining of EU. It's just like black and white. 😀
Click to expand...

Cyprus didn't do half the stuff that other bigger more developed EU countries will have to do in a crisis smi(&%.

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Thanks!

10 years seems reasonable. I'll try to be out of here in 5, just in case 😎
 
pippo said:
Thanks!

10 years seems reasonable. I'll try to be out of here in 5, just in case 😎
Click to expand...

I guess you don't think there will be a financial crisis in next 10 years smi(&%.

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