Concealment of Beneficial Ownership
- Thread starter Remy
- Start date
Do you think a POA including specific content about a relation between a real UBO and nominee UBO could protect each part as could be a POA for normal nominee ? If yes could you PM me a draft of such a agreement. I'm curious to know as the object of such agreement is not really legal, so could be legal the agreement related to this.
There is one in the advertisers. There you will never be shown as UBO.
He does it the following way:
They are 2 Germans, however they both work on their own. Guy A does the setups for guy B. However guy A doesn't know the final destination of his company as it is officially for guy B. Guy A signs a blanco purchase contract for guy B, but guy B never signs it, he hands it over to you. So the bank account will be setup completely by them and you will get the blanco purchase agreement and the full control over the company. As guy B still makes the KYC with you to still comply with the contract laws, that every party needs to be identified, the purchase contract for the company get completely legal after signed (just needed in case you don't trust your UBO nominee anymore). During the time the contract stays blanco it is a grey zone. This setup could only go wrong if the real final UBO would tell anybody that he is the real UBO and shows for example authority that he was in charge all the time. This is really hard to prove and the 10k penalty is almost impossible to get, as there are a lot of loopholes to make the real UBO a consultant for the company that would prove why he had a "little" control over the company and the "fake" UBO took action in his interest.
This is possible in the US.
They both agreed to stop after 100 clients. After this and the invoicing they do for them via even German companies they don't need to work anymore anyway... . I guess they will stop even earlier. And by the way, companies won't be linked in the US, they don't care. He will even do a Delaware setup if you ask him, so the company register won't publish his name, so there is almost no possibilty to be linked. For the banking they normally don't have problems as they are quite good connected in the banking scene. They even have capital management companies with FinCen registration each where they can exchange BTC to the US bank account or vice versa.
Another good fact to know is that banks in the US have very good protection mechanisms to fight identity theft. Therefore your "fake" UBO can't f**k you over and can't transfer all your funds somewhere. You can change banking password, email and phone, so in case someone wants to go to the bank and make a transfer without knowing his online login you will be notified on all channels and can decline the transaction and the for example sign the purchase agreement to take over 100% ownership.
The bank where they do the bank account is even one of the US biggest banks, so very well accepted. You can even get Paypal and Stripe and many more services.
He does it the following way:
They are 2 Germans, however they both work on their own. Guy A does the setups for guy B. However guy A doesn't know the final destination of his company as it is officially for guy B. Guy A signs a blanco purchase contract for guy B, but guy B never signs it, he hands it over to you. So the bank account will be setup completely by them and you will get the blanco purchase agreement and the full control over the company. As guy B still makes the KYC with you to still comply with the contract laws, that every party needs to be identified, the purchase contract for the company get completely legal after signed (just needed in case you don't trust your UBO nominee anymore). During the time the contract stays blanco it is a grey zone. This setup could only go wrong if the real final UBO would tell anybody that he is the real UBO and shows for example authority that he was in charge all the time. This is really hard to prove and the 10k penalty is almost impossible to get, as there are a lot of loopholes to make the real UBO a consultant for the company that would prove why he had a "little" control over the company and the "fake" UBO took action in his interest.
This is possible in the US.
They both agreed to stop after 100 clients. After this and the invoicing they do for them via even German companies they don't need to work anymore anyway... . I guess they will stop even earlier. And by the way, companies won't be linked in the US, they don't care. He will even do a Delaware setup if you ask him, so the company register won't publish his name, so there is almost no possibilty to be linked. For the banking they normally don't have problems as they are quite good connected in the banking scene. They even have capital management companies with FinCen registration each where they can exchange BTC to the US bank account or vice versa.
Another good fact to know is that banks in the US have very good protection mechanisms to fight identity theft. Therefore your "fake" UBO can't f**k you over and can't transfer all your funds somewhere. You can change banking password, email and phone, so in case someone wants to go to the bank and make a transfer without knowing his online login you will be notified on all channels and can decline the transaction and the for example sign the purchase agreement to take over 100% ownership.
The bank where they do the bank account is even one of the US biggest banks, so very well accepted. You can even get Paypal and Stripe and many more services.
As all parties are identified via KYC (passport scan) the problems would just be minor. Even if a fake passport was sent in. I would have to show them that I did KYC properly and in the worst case I would be fined with 10k USD for this case (in the US I am allowed to do "plausible KYC" becaue I have "limited ressources"). That's the risk to take, but I think this risk is acceptable. But again, this 10k USD fine is almost impossible, as I would just tell them that I still was in charge of the company and I got consultancy from him. There are a lot of loopholes for this purpose, it is not my fault that the money came for example from BTC was drug money. And for wires, the entry of the money to the bank would be the problematic and illegal action. But I don't accept physical cash payments, so money laundering is not on my site. I don't have to take care that the wire came from a legal source. That's what the banks an FinCen is for.
Only 10 000 USD fine for you, I believed it was more :
"Anyone convicted of making false statements in violation of federal statute faces a prison term of up to five years and a fine of up to $250,000."
In Europe, for sure it is much more than a 10 000 euro fine, penalty could also be prison and heavy fines.
I guess you mean 10 K USD fee for someone who sold his company to a bad guy whitout knowledge of this fact as he makes "plausible KYC", but what's happen when the agreement (the grey zone where Blanco purchase act is not signed) is working for years with movements on the account. Yes, I think the money laundering would be on "your" site.
Could you claim in a court that you were unaware of the situation ?
"Anyone convicted of making false statements in violation of federal statute faces a prison term of up to five years and a fine of up to $250,000."
In Europe, for sure it is much more than a 10 000 euro fine, penalty could also be prison and heavy fines.
I guess you mean 10 K USD fee for someone who sold his company to a bad guy whitout knowledge of this fact as he makes "plausible KYC", but what's happen when the agreement (the grey zone where Blanco purchase act is not signed) is working for years with movements on the account. Yes, I think the money laundering would be on "your" site.
Could you claim in a court that you were unaware of the situation ?
Nah, you can only deposit 7500 USD physical cash per month at the big US banks. After this they will heavily check source of funds. So if someone really want to do money laundering with one of my companies it will never reach a critical amount. Deposit 7500 USD 2 months in a row and you can be sure you will be checked and therefore I will know, too. And you can only do that at the specific bank itself or branded ATM and you therefore have to be in the US. It's really hard to do physical cash money laundering with US setups. You won't even be able to smuggle the "drug" money into the country. So the "drug" related turnover has to be done within the US. No one would choose the US for physical cash money laundering. If you want to do money laundering then go to China (if you have the necessary connection).
And as you see, the fines are "upto" 250k where in EU you even face prison, so you can see that they don't fine this too hard. For my situation the common fine is around 10k. Could be more, could be less. But not drastically. But still the risk is ok, just imagine risking all your money to produce some medical stuff where you then get sued for 50 mio if it is having minor side effects... . Which option would you choose 😀. It's quite a good tradeoff in my opinion.
The place where I can get fined super hard and could face prison is the part with the capital management company with FinCen registration. However there is not a lot they can do. For example Guy X wants to exchange BTC to USD. I can write a BTC invoice to a Seychelle, Nevis or whatever entity which doesn't even have a bank account and don't need one. Law can't be enforced there. I can then accept the BTC with this source of fund and do the FinCen fillings for it, tell them the transaction details so they can check it in the blockchain. This takes them so long that you can't imagine it.... In the meantime money was already exchanged and paid out via consultancy invoice from the company of guy X who has a company with me. As there are not just one client managed by the capital management company the paid out USD can't be traced to the specific BTC transaction. It is not my fault that the Seychellen company did unclean business. I did the report, I gave them all necessary fillings, I identified the party, and I did the "utmost" effort to not do business with criminals. The rest is their problem. I show them some "mails" where we talk about the business and I ask about the source of funds and other necessary questions.
Mainly I need to show them that I asked following questions and did get an answer:
"
1.The complete and precise economic purpose of the transaction, including a description of the underlying goods/services/technologies
2.A copy of the invoice(s) or any other probative document(s) related to the transaction
3.Complete identification of all involved parties, their activities and existence of (recurrent) business with this/these counterparty(ies)
4.Are the goods, services and technologies subject to direct or indirect military/repression use? If so, please explain. Please submit any probative document(s) if applicable.
5.Are the goods or services subject to "dual-use" as regard to the list of items considered by European authorities? If so, please explain.
6.Is the transaction related in any way to financing? If so, please explain
"
The truth is of course more complex then written in this post. But these are the basics to give you an idea on how this is working.
Just imagine Kraken, Binance etc.... guess how much drug related BTC they get everyday and they are still here.... I am the smallest fish in this shark tank... . It's very hard to find the culprit for BTC laundering if done right via some mixers and some darks... all the people got caught because of this had bad security guidelines and stored everything unencrypted on their main home PC which was seized by authorities.
And as you see, the fines are "upto" 250k where in EU you even face prison, so you can see that they don't fine this too hard. For my situation the common fine is around 10k. Could be more, could be less. But not drastically. But still the risk is ok, just imagine risking all your money to produce some medical stuff where you then get sued for 50 mio if it is having minor side effects... . Which option would you choose 😀. It's quite a good tradeoff in my opinion.
The place where I can get fined super hard and could face prison is the part with the capital management company with FinCen registration. However there is not a lot they can do. For example Guy X wants to exchange BTC to USD. I can write a BTC invoice to a Seychelle, Nevis or whatever entity which doesn't even have a bank account and don't need one. Law can't be enforced there. I can then accept the BTC with this source of fund and do the FinCen fillings for it, tell them the transaction details so they can check it in the blockchain. This takes them so long that you can't imagine it.... In the meantime money was already exchanged and paid out via consultancy invoice from the company of guy X who has a company with me. As there are not just one client managed by the capital management company the paid out USD can't be traced to the specific BTC transaction. It is not my fault that the Seychellen company did unclean business. I did the report, I gave them all necessary fillings, I identified the party, and I did the "utmost" effort to not do business with criminals. The rest is their problem. I show them some "mails" where we talk about the business and I ask about the source of funds and other necessary questions.
Mainly I need to show them that I asked following questions and did get an answer:
"
1.The complete and precise economic purpose of the transaction, including a description of the underlying goods/services/technologies
2.A copy of the invoice(s) or any other probative document(s) related to the transaction
3.Complete identification of all involved parties, their activities and existence of (recurrent) business with this/these counterparty(ies)
4.Are the goods, services and technologies subject to direct or indirect military/repression use? If so, please explain. Please submit any probative document(s) if applicable.
5.Are the goods or services subject to "dual-use" as regard to the list of items considered by European authorities? If so, please explain.
6.Is the transaction related in any way to financing? If so, please explain
"
The truth is of course more complex then written in this post. But these are the basics to give you an idea on how this is working.
Just imagine Kraken, Binance etc.... guess how much drug related BTC they get everyday and they are still here.... I am the smallest fish in this shark tank... . It's very hard to find the culprit for BTC laundering if done right via some mixers and some darks... all the people got caught because of this had bad security guidelines and stored everything unencrypted on their main home PC which was seized by authorities.
If you want to do money laundering then go to China (if you have the necessary connection).
[/QUOTE]
I know, I'm living there, but no physical cash is involved. We are not anymore in the 80's. People don't need to bring bags of cash to the banks to wash it. Everything is related to electronical transfers by cards and bank transfers. Same outside from China.
In this case, you will be done.
[/QUOTE]
I know, I'm living there, but no physical cash is involved. We are not anymore in the 80's. People don't need to bring bags of cash to the banks to wash it. Everything is related to electronical transfers by cards and bank transfers. Same outside from China.
In this case, you will be done.
