German/ American couple to Spain (or Portugal)

[eckerth]

HI, although I read many posts about Spain and some bleak outlooks.. it still is the country number one on my list.
My Wife (US/Mexican) and I (German) plan to move to Spain for good. Plan is to life of the investments of the trading account in US.
guess this will be taxed by 23 % max as private person.

Read about a "subsidiary SL" that could reduce the Tax to 11%.
Does anyone have experience with this and can share more info. ?
Or ideally can refer a Tax lawyer that helps with such setup ?

As Portugal would be an alternative.. Any more info how the situation would be there ?

thx in advance
T.

 

[Silvio]

Seems like every day some new forum member wants to move to Spain. For the‌ love of god I can't understand what is so attractive in Spain that everybody wants‍ to move there, even people aware of how much of a tax hell it is.⁠ There are dozens of tax-free islands with wonderful weather and great food. You'll save on⁤ tax, headache, and potential risk of communist government going crazy. I don't get it.

Anyway as per your question: Do you plan to actively trade or just to live off⁣ the dividends? The scale of the investments matter as well, if you have a big⁢ investment you don't plan to buy\sell\manage maybe you can set up a foundation\trust. Also, do︀ you plan to actually register in Spain? or just live there and keep a low︁ profile. All answer make a difference.

 

[eckerth]

Hi, thx for your reply. For me am just not an island guy. Would prefer‌ a sunny place on the continent.
Also had my share of travelling in my life‍ so rather look for a place to stay.
Having this said, yes am looking to⁠ be a tax-resident, don't think that a low profile will really work anymore or for⁤ long. Am actively investing so not living from dividends. Although could imagine a construct that⁣ my tradings are done in a company that pays me dividends.

 

[JackAlabama]

Portugal is more welcoming than Spain in regards to tax and the regulation︀ stuff.

You could move to Panama. It speaks Spanish and is close to your wifes︁ home/language. And it is not an island.

I had a lawyer who told me to︂ avoid Spain and just come there for holiday lol I guess you will guess the︃ same answer if I was to refer you 😉

 

[manukahoney]

Lived (not just visited) in many countries in⁠ EU, but Spain is still N1 when it comes to life quality for a family. Good English/bilingual schools, good weather all year around (Marbella is particularly good), a LOT⁤ to do (you'll get bored on an island in no time, even Cyprus will be⁣ boring in a year or so, not even starting with Malta), comparatively cheap (including property),⁢ LGBT-friendly (believe me, it can be a big issue elsewhere) and finally - a great︀ network of people visiting/living here.
There are some ways to limit tax exposure (google "Beckham︁ tax") for high-earners, maybe OP will find it useful.

Portugal is just not the same︂ - Lisbon and Cascais is great, but it just a bit worse in every matter︃ comparing with Marbella or Barcelona imho.

 

[manukahoney]

And don't forget the language - Spanish is very common, Portuguese - not so.

 

[Silvio]

Interesting stuff.

What is so good about Spanish schools? From my︃ experience every Spanish person I met was not especially smart and interested mainly in smoking︄ weed and sleeping... Spain is ranked below average in PISA scores as well. (Spanish people︅ in the forum- please forgive me for the generalization).
As for "comparatively cheap" - I︆ don't know where you lived but Barcelona was exorbitantly expensive compared to almost any other︇ European city except London.
Same goes for things to do, yeah the food is great︈ and there is beach, sun, sangria and nice architecture. What else is there to do?︉

I'm asking seriously, not trying to make fun, I'm not some Spain-hater... just genuinely trying︊ to understand what I am missing.

 

[JackAlabama]

Barcelona is expensive as hell. This in relation︂ for what you get and what you can earn there, it is remarkable. At least︃ in London you have a chance to get a halfway decent salary.

The smart Spanish︄ which there are quite a few all seem to leave lol. Many seek their luck︅ in the UK or Dubai or somewhere in Asia
Guess who is left behind (those︆ you met basically).

 

[manukahoney]

Not Spanish, but English schools in Spain. There︂ are several decent (first-hand experience) primaries around Marbella, don't know about Barcelona - lived there︃ before having kids.
Don't know about secondaries, planning to send kids boarding to the UK.︄

Prices - for a price of 1-bed flat in Zone1-2 you get yourself a 3-5︅ bedroom villa within 10 minutes drive from the beach, private pool, garage etc. Internet is︆ really decent (better than in Central London), restaurants/groceries, baby-sitters etc are like half or third︇ of what you pay in London.
It's still expensive comparing to Prague or Kyiv, for︈ instance (again, first-hand experience), but still cheaper than comparable places in the UK.

You are︉ correct about bleak social activity - everything happens in summer, but frankly the weather provided︊ so much options to enjoy even in winter, so we didn't miss West End much.︋ Networking in summer is fantastic - we managed to meet all the people there that︌ we tried to meet for years in London.

Another important thing - you can get︍ things done. Just find some expat company and offer them double pay for urgent job,︎ you'll get it. Rarely worked in the UK for us.

 

[manukahoney]

Absolutely correct - you need⁠ to run your own gig or work remotely for some international company to enjoy this⁤ setup. Local salaries are a joke.

 

[sdreaver]

Personally, having evaluated tax schemes in Spain, Portugal, and Italy I've settled on Portugal. The‌ govt. is much more welcoming and forward-thinking. It makes getting things done as foreigner much‍ easier, and will continue to be that way where. Many have commented that Spain's bureaucracy⁠ is a mess. I have colleagues who have done Portugal and Spain, I know of⁤ a few in Marbella or have spent time there. Most people I know have preferred⁣ Portugal, even if they thought Spain was a great option. A common sentiment was that⁢ Portugal feels like it's moving forward, spain, not so much. But for purely fiscal reasons,︀ you won't get as big of a break on foreign income or the possibility of︁ 0% on dividends from Spain. Spain (and Barca for that matter) has the brand name︂ over Portugal. That's about it. Portugal will also give you access to quality Intl schools︃ pretty much anywhere in the country.
For reference, we are also an American and German︄ couple (that was moving away from DE). Spain was my original choice, and was proven︅ wrong through research, visits, and recommendations. (But either way, you'll have more sun and probably︆ lower taxes than Germany)
Lisbon is a great, (still) up-and-coming city, if you want the︇ city life. If you don't care to be in a bigger city, Algarve is awesome.︈ Faro is the sunniest place in Europe and a quick and easy trip over to︉ Spain. Personally, I really enjoy access to emerging techs and services you get more in︊ a bigger city.

 

[saintjohnny]

Spaniard here. You are correct. This is a︂ country of idiots and bums. Anything remotely intellectual SCARES the s**t out of Spanish people.︃ It's frightening. We even have a term for those who are smarter than the average.︄ It's "genio-loco", which translates to crazy genius. It means that if someone is a bit︅ higher on the IQ scale, there is something wrong and that person has to be︆ feared and ostracized.

Fiesta, alcohol, and food all day every day. Ah. Don't forget weed,︇ more drugs, football, and getting a*s. Siesta is a myth. We hardly sleep. It's not︈ really possible to sleep with all the noise.

I was abducted and woken up in︉ a random place by the neighbor's kid screaming, a hammer banging on a wall, and︊ a saw, plus a dog barking, all at the same time, I'd know where I︋ am right away.

Oh and this? A bit of self-awareness to be able to identify︌ what's wrong with our culture? 1 in a million. Yours truly being one. Biba España.︍

I don't understand how anyone would like to move to this shithole.

 

[Pembroke]

I've compared all tax systems as well and have my eyes on Malta for a‌ move this summer. Yes it's very small but you need to look at it as‍ a city. We lived in Barcelona for a while (which is about 100km2 thus a⁠ third of Malta) and the people we knew almost never left the area. Spain is⁤ empty but for the cities. We looked at Portugal as well but found the atmosphere/people⁣ a bit closed and the economy not so strong. I much prefer the Spanish enthusiasm⁢ and positive spirit to Portugese nostalgia. Unfortunately as mentioned above Spain has totalitarian and communist︀ tendencies. Malta has for us the big advantage that it has a strong economy and︁ entrepreneurial attitude compared to Portugal and that it is realistic to find a job in︂ English. International schools in Portugal are also double the price in my research.

 

[JackAlabama]

yeah it is‍ crazy how they love this crazy totalitarian measures.

I have trouble understanding it myself how⁠ even the people we paid for working in Spain on our tourism related investment cannot⁤ comprehend that the Spanish communist gov killing their tourism industry is not ideal for their⁣ own well being aka. our money stopped flowing their way.

If you are young you⁢ can do the fiesta sangria all night and have a good time. If you are︀ old like me and cannot do the crazy drinking just eating food and chill. 😉

 

[saintjohnny]

Because that would require some thinking and anything⁤ that requires connecting a few dots requires a slight intellectual effort and putting down the⁣ glass of beer for a sec... so no, it's not going to happen.